Army Shooting

Discussion in 'Shooting, Hunting and Fishing' started by Private_Joker, Oct 6, 2008.

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  1. I don't know whether this topic belongs here on in the Training Wing section, so MOD's move it wherever you want (or even delete it)

    Having just been to the DCCT range and out on the real range with a unit I am amazed by the lack of coaching available or given you young soldiers.

    Does the army train its SNCO's and young ruperts in the art of coaching. or do they just get given the Coaching Aide Memoire and told to get on with it? The DCCT is an excellent training tool if well used but I just witnessed the coaches looking at people's green and red boxes saying apply the marksmanship principles and make them all green?

    Is there a train the trainer package availble for shooting, which after all is a key requirement for the army??? It seems the SASC hold the monopoly on shooting and for whatever reason can't don't or won't share. I know everyone is busy but a more joint effort to improve shooting at the lowest level is surely required????

    Rant over.
  2. Private Joker.

    There is a lot of working going on to improve shooting right across the Army (in fact defence). It's already kicked in at Brecon.

    The SAA course's have been changed to suit the current environment, the problem with Coaching is that you need to be coached to coach and practiced at it. You cannot master coaching on a course, you learn the basic's then with some help from a more knowledgeable SNCO, master the skill. It take's time and ammunition. Even more you need enthusiam amd motivation to be a better coach.

    If you have any concerns PM me, or contact SAA Officer at Brecon, they will come and give your unit some help and assitance if you want it.

  3. Personal hobby horse... (unsurprising, really). A lot of any performance comes because the instructors set high standards by example, and are capable of assisting people to reach them.

    We don't let unfit sods become PTIs; we don't let slovenly sods become Drill Pigs; is it unreasonable to insist that SAA Instructors should qualify as marksmen before attending the course?

    Personally, I thought that was the whole point of having a unit shooting team; to have a cadre of excellence within the unit, which can be tapped to provide specialist coaching as necessary - in this case to those preparing to become SAA Instructors.
  4. ugly

    ugly LE Moderator

    Amen to that one, nothing can replace experience and if you are teaching recruits then having coaches from an under 18 pln isnt the best thing but better than nothing. A unit shooting team and especially one which passes on skills such as those used in "combat shooting" is vital to the unit!
  5. It just seems that there should be an element of coaching on all SASC run courses. After all for example a Pl. Comd. is expected to be able to train a platoon. You ask most platoon commanders, including my boss about shooting and they don't really know partly because

    1. Apparently they get thrashed on ranges at Sandhurst and don't enjoy them.

    2. They are too often RCO's. How about letting your Cpl's and staffy run the ranges and make yourself availble to train your platoon - that way you get to cut about your blokes and your Junior and SNCO's get someting positive for their SJAR's? winner all round me thinks.

    There is not enough range time IMHO - every range we seem to do is APWT to try and get the guys though...not really productive use of the time.

    Good point about PTI's should battalions / regiments have a SASC shooting officer or garrison shooting co-ordinators??

    We need to delegate down and let them build up.
  6. ugly

    ugly LE Moderator

    Are we in the same position as the British Army was on return from South Africa over 100 years ago?
    If we are can we do something about it as we did then or are we going to rely on big guns and money (javelin and Jdam) to replace individual marksmanship skills?
    Answer those questions first!
  7. Good point Ugly - what are we acually expecting our soldiers to do with their weapons? I can't answer it because i am def. not qualified to do it, but effective suppression has got to be an objective....

    I guess with the eventual introduction of the ACOG we will see a revision of PAM 20/21, but the ACOG defenatly looks to contribulte to effective and more accurate shooting, both at long range and in a CQB environment
  8. There's always the option of making the Tickle Test for SAA an explicit part of a new CO's OJAR on appointment. Should focus their mind wonderfully. In these target-driven times, anything that isn't a "target" is by necessity at the bottom of the "to-do" list. Unrealistic, I know.

    There were articles in the ATDN of a few years ago from CO WFR (dates it somewhat) which explained the blindingly obvious and simple mechanism by which they cleaned up on all of the broadly-assessed shooting competitions. That would be effective coaching, and commanders at all levels taking responsibility for the effectiveness of their primary weapon system (namely, a bloke with a rifle).

    Yes, I know, everyone has their hobby horses. The fitness nuts will explain that it's no use being dead-eye dick if at H-Hour you're still 1km from the LD and breathing through your arrse, etc, etc; but the "Contemptible Little Army" of 1914 showed that they had learned the lessons of the Boer War when it came to marksmanship, and showed what properly-trained soldiers could achieve.

    PS I may be a TR shooter in my spare time, but in all of this I am referring to service weapons, and Combat Marksmanship. Target rifle, shotgun, whatever; all should be regarded as vehicles to develop the skills of a battle shot, and to stay abreast of current thought and technique. My TR stuff certainly made me a far better service rifle coach.
  9. ancienturion

    ancienturion LE Book Reviewer

    Possibly old fashioned and out of date, but what happened to the Master Coach and Sub Unit Coach system?
  10. All officers do a coaching module at Sandhurst, so officers should be able to coach. Unfortunately, unless you are good at shooting it is very difficult to coach.

    If a regiment is undermanned it becomes very difficult to get sufficient coaches to increase marksmanship standards - and suddenly a low key range day becomes almost regimental effort.
  11. The only 'training' we get is an APWT every year; when will it sink in that simply doing the test is not training, and while practice makes perfect, it does not put right faults as much as coaching
  12. That's a failure of command. There is an Operational Shooting Policy for a reason; it's quite good; and if you follow it, you can't really avoid doing the coaching.

    Mind you, I started in the days of the SLR APWT, which you could just about pass with a score taken only from exposures in the prone position. It took a lot of persuasion (as a snotty 2Lt) to get the OC turn one of our range weekends from yet another "let's bang all the guys through the APWT, and if they fail let them resit, they need it for their bounty" to "why not actually try coaching for a full weekend, and they might actually pass the damn thing".

    Handy hint - if you only have a few sub-unit coaches, rather than sticking them all on your zeroing range, spread them out. Pair the firers off and make each practice a "watch your mate and see if they do X" shoot. (insert blink / flinch / snatch). Throw in some beers for the best performance, and handicap it if necessary. Nothing like competition, and having your mate watch you like a hawk while taking the piss, to gain full concentration ...
  13. blue-sophist

    blue-sophist LE Good Egg (charities)

    Glad you mentioned Tickle ... about 10 years ago John Woods was tearing out his remaining hair at the ARA over the dreadful lack of participation. He acknowledged that there were plenty of pressures on Units already, but the bottom line was that was, effectively, Core Activity for the entire Green Machine ... especially Inf.

    It doesn't require a genius to make the entire thing FUN as well, and then you get guys wanting to compete [when they can, obviously] and bring back new skills from Central meetings, and pass them on to the rest of the unit. That's how it SHOULD work.

    This is not a dig, but when the RAF Regt started competing at Bisley they were being thrashed by WRAF and fat Techie SNCOs and old Ruperts from MOD. Over the years they got better and better, and can now stand up against any Inf outfit on marksmanship - just check Methuen results over recent years.
  14. Well, some of us :wink: And anyway what's wrong with a good old WRAF thrashing :D
  15. blue-sophist

    blue-sophist LE Good Egg (charities)

    A great sport, is it not!! AND they understand Happy Hour!! :lol:

    However, back on topic :wink: