Army rape investigation was rubbish

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by Proximo, Jan 1, 2006.

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  1. I spotted this in the 'MoD Oracle' scroll bar and it caught my eye:

    I know the SIB chap who led this investigation very well, and I am frankly baffled that the Oracle are even giving this the time of day. Most of the obstructions encountered by the team were placed there by Martyn Day and - bizarrely - the FCO.

    I suspect that because the SIB inquiry found that in virtually all cases, the allegations were unfounded at best, we now have a civvy lawyer who thought he could take the MoD to the cleaners, failed comprehensively, and is now sulking about it.

    This isn't really a story at all, is it, save that some people might be interested to discover the SIB actually spent thousands of manhours of labour clearing British soldiers from all this unpleasantness.

    Well done them!

    The link is here.
  2. If the SIB hadn't investigated all 2000 of the claims, they would have been criticised heavily by Mr Day and his friends.
    What this article does though, is help highlight the volume of work these people are doing over the globe at this time.
    Given the sheer size of such an exquiry and the apparant success of it, I would suggest that those who will be interviewed in the forthcoming 6 RMP Historical Enquiry Team NI cases, will have good reason to feel more confident about those forthcoming enquiries.

    However, as always for the SIB this particluar one looks as if it's a classic case of 'damned if you do and damned if you don't'.

    The tax payer has much to be thankful of.
  3. I hate it when people do this, but just this once...

    Absolutely. For reference, see virtually every single case the MoD have investigated over the past 30-odd years.

    And they're getting more and more thinly stretched all the time. Heard a great expression used by a chap giving a briefing on Afghan next year - spread thinner than NAAFI jam - seems pertinent in this example as well.

    Don't hold your breath mate - or you ORC! The mere mention of NI and everyone turns into closet SAS men with the morals of vipers!

    It was ever thus. :D

    As indeed it does of the service provided by the whole Army. It will be interesting to see what 'purplisation' of our investigating arms does to the quality of delivery. Got no issue at all with the Army chaps, but the RAF bunch??
  4. You may be able to link the 'purplisation' to the thread about that Navy lad's book as reported in the Times. Just how many senior officers does one police force need. I don't think as a service provider that a tri service force will fail to deliver. What they need to do at this stage is stop the 'scheming'. Despite what is said on other threads, the Naval Provost and the RAF Police will bring quality with them, nevertheless the 'bedding in' period, will be difficult for those who fear the future. The satisfaction is in the blend, to quote a famous whisky advert.

    As for your comment about 'closet SAS' men ( :lol: ), a very good point. Having had a roullemont (spell check?) tour and two residentials, I cannot but agree with you. Ever drink in the 'Green Fly'?

    It would be nice if the article which prompted this thread were published by teh national press, particularly The Mail, who have spent too much time reporting upon Col Collins and his 'Key Stone Cops' anecdotes. A bitter little man, who failed to recognise that he was accused of having committed an offence and in accordance with the law of the land which he swore to protect, he was investigated for it.

    What for the rest of the SIB's activities world wide? I've read a few comments from some of those on this site purporting to be Constables (in particularly a probationer from one of our north of the border constabularies and one from BTP) who would never be allowed near a rape enquiry let alone the investigation of 2000 of them. What County Constabulary currently invesitigates the volume of murders and attempted murders as the RMP do in Iraq and have done so since the invasion. The only problems with Iraq for the SIB is that their last PM sent inexperienced GPD Officers to command them and that the ALS/APA refused and still refuse to listen to the voice of experience.

    They may not be perfect but people should look at the amount of times the 'proper' police get it wrong in order to get an idea of how many times that the RMP get it right. Unlike their civilian counterparts though, RMP exercise that rare quality of modesty.
  5. well Mr Day wasnt complaining about the 2000 or so claims at the start of the investigation, from a list he provided!! Maybe someone should ask him about the rumour about the 1000 shillings that each complainant HAD to pay him, just to be 'considered' if he would take on their case. (Allegedly)

    P.S. have i covered my 'six oclock' on potential litigation enough?????
  6. I have already had a home visit from these guys. All nice and friendly. What Could I Remember-sort of thing rather than Why Did You Do This approach. Of course, this way of doing things meant that I 'remembered' much more than I would have done had they been confrontational!
    As for Kenya. Where does he think he gets off with being joint-director of an investigation? If 2000 complained - 2000 had to be seen. He started putting it about that he was the new Bwaana Makuba and pulled these (people) out of the wood-shed. What now pishes him off is realisation that any he does get to court will face the question - "what makes you different from the 1980 who made false allegations?"
  7. Biscuits just took the words out of my mouth (as oppose to putting them in *wink*)

    And it gets worse and worse as the organisation (our purple one) itself is deliberately shrunk meaning that those who wish to stay in and wish to continue making a contribution which will continue to be rewarded must continue to practise the most outrageous "Umbrella Management" which itself guarantees the lynch mob effect for anyone who could be seen as a threat (if we were to do anything other than investigate their actions fully). All this so that we can continue to arrive at the Group Cohesive Norm opinions of those same individuals regardless of the common sense or true application of The Service Test.

    What a perfect day for such significant articles to appear in the press with so many people having the time to read the papers and - I dare say - the lack of energy to do much else. I just wonder if the concern that it engenders will be sufficient to carry into the new political year?
  8. My Lord - this far into a thread and there seems to be only the one hymn sheet circulating!
    SIB workload. Yes - they deal with a lot. I have concerns over two reported suicides as this seems rather high in an organisation normally known for resillence.
  9. Could we please wake up to the fact that in some cultures (and not only the ones being discussed here), lying and telling the bigger lie than thy neighbour is quite accepted as the norm? (I do not rule out some of the British Army Officer Class either, in my last post I worked with a terrible liar (a Major too) and have met many of his breed during 30 years of service). That is not to say that it is impossible for events so shocking to have happened, that is for the proper, trained investigators to look at and present evidence either way.

    I was appraised of this lying issue many years ago by a man who fell in love with Africa as a young guardsman and made a study of cultures there and elsewhere; (he is still serving so I wont mention his name) but he was adamant that in one of the african countries which he loved, lived in and bought a home there, lying is a normal and practical way of life.

    So it comes as no surprise that 2000 people came forward,,,,,,,,,, (I think the German government had a similar problem with asylum seekers who could claim up to 80% of their previous income; amazing how many Balkan labourers were earning DM6000 pcm before the horrors of etc,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,)

    Happy New Year and be safe
  10. Seeing the the Law firm was promising huge sums of money to any woman who claimed to have been raped by British Soldiers is it any wonder that he collected 2,000 victims names. Now he is complaining that things are not progressing the way he wants them to as he is missing out collecting all that money from the Government for each case they brings to Court. It is about time the Government stops paying these lawyers for going around digging up false accusations about our troops, or if they don't with draw the funding the lawyers should be made responsible for every false claim filed and have to pay the full costs involved.
  11. I'm not shure you've got that round the right way, WAnchor.

    The MoD - and by extension the Government - must be seen to take any allegation of impropriety or wrongdoing seriously. These allegations may come from any source. Regardless of their provenance, or the matter at hand, we must take them at face value and investigate them to the best of our ability. This takes time, people...and money.

    I understand where you're coming from - a place where we don't make it even easier than it has to be to claw money out of the government for completely nonsensical allegations - but if you cast your eyes up this thread, you will see that our (the Army's) investigators are spread unbelievably thin as it is making shure that your vision of hell doesn't become a reality.

    We may live in a litigation-happy world, but the days of the 'civvy brief' running roughshod over the MoD are well and truly gone. But (bad grammar) in order to fend them off, we need rock solid investigations, supported at the highest level, and with a political will to see that justice is done.

    That's the bit that's missing IMHO! :D

    And I agree that utterly false allegations should be met with censure - isn't that what the Bar Council do?
  12. It is completely impossible to realistically investigate 2000 historical rape offences properly in a developing country with RMP assets. You'd need more investigators than there are soldiers in the entire RMP multiplied several times.

    If the RMP SIO insisted on it to illustrate what a fool's errand he'd been given then fair enough, I can't say I blame him.

    I'm feeling increasingly sorry for the RMP, caught as they are between a politically-motivated rock and some increasingly hard, hot and sandy places. Shame there isn't a MOD civil litigation team that vigorously seeks legal redress and financial compensation against ambulance-chasers.

  13. The SIO was directed to do so, V.
  14. Disagree with you there V. An investigation will only stretch as far as the amount of evidence established. In these cases, that would mean the allegation of each IP and any supporting witness statements (if any), interviews after caution when suspect(s) is/are identified and if necessary an ID parade(s). Every case would have been dealt with as an individual case. As an allegation is found to have been fabricated or devoid of any evidence which would result in an arrest, it would have been filed and the next enquiry dealt with.

    The RMP may not have the resources of the Met, but they spent a considerable time out there and staff were regularly turned over. They have excellent support from the FSS and their crime scene investigators and managers are first rate. Any crime scene (including the IP) would realistically (although not impossibly) be unlikely to yield any forensic evidence given the length of time since the alleged incident (we are talking years here). Even though, the potential of its existence would have been considered. I would guarantee that having identified the IP, the SIBs next consideration would be the scene itself and that despite the period of time passed, they would have attended and examined each scene as if it were a fresh case.

    There is nothing impossible about the situation. You are not dealing with Bobbies who want overtime or will do just enough to see the relief out. There's no 8 hour shifts. These people were investigating war crimes in Bosnia, Kosovo and Iraq, long before the UN considered it safe to get involved and indeed, provided the UN with much of its evidence. Those incidents involved 1000s of people and despite the fact that handling large scale cases like this isn't exactly the day to day norm for RMP, they are more experienced than most when it comes down to it.

    They are stretched, overly so. But despite this and the knockings of rags like the Daily Mail and the failure of the Army Legal Services, they don't half do a good job mate. They must have done a brammer on this one. Just look at what Mr Day is complaining about. Don't you just wish that happened more often?
  15. What is missing from this story is an Alastair Campbell-like counterstory to discredit the ambulance-chasing little twatt, for being the opportunist he is. Hard for us to do ourselves. Perhaps a job for an independent Federation outside the service to stand up for us in the court of public opinion?