Army Numbers Fall Again

Whoop de do Basil. None of that says shag all about you though does it? no one was ill. Was that down to you then was it? And as a result of no one being ill, and the Regiment, not Stacker1, implementing a PT regime, the non biffs got fit through their own hard work, and yet you want a pat on the back for it in typical RLC senior fashion. Yeah, my blokes arent biffs and they are all fit, and its all down to ME! Please Sir, look what I did sir...... Faaak off.
They were ill, especially straight out of training, it didnt exempt them any exercise and they were banned from sport/AT. Miraculously the majority got better. The other troops just let the biffs do what they liked wondered why people rarely got better.
I used to take the lads out running when we had **** all to do until the PTI got a sad on. I used to go on remedial and assign pacemakers to those whose struggled.
Its not hard to lead is it? Well actually clearly it is because some people struggle to do the basics to ensure they have good soldiers.
 

Roger Out

War Hero
I joined the army a year before 9/11 (2000).
The army was still doing NI and Kosovo. That’s what I thought I was joining for. The army was undermanned then I think too.
Obviously Afghan and Iraq changed the dynamics of the Forces for best part of 15 or so years.
I was just turning 17 then, pensions and job security didn’t occur to me. I just wanted a future and some adventure.
I don’t know what the army is like now but presumably it still offers travel, sick pay,security and a monthly wage guaranteed. Many jobs do not offer this.
But then many jobs don’t ultimately expect you to risk your life for political gain.
Would I join nowadays? I don’t know.
 
I think you did read it, you now realise that yet again you were wrong and are now pretending that its only the RLC and because the Officers pay a higher percentage of the wage (But collectively much lower) to cover up for the fact that (once again) you didnt know what you are talking about.

No I never went to an AGM, despite the fact I never actually knew when most of them were, do you think I should have flown over from Germany to attend them? But lets say I did, all that would have happened is that I would have been marked down as not a team player. I have fought for the last three years in my sqn/regt to stop ******* boys over and that was a struggle enough. However do you think people need to be told not to steal from their soldiers.

As to your final one, the soldiers are still being robbed for other peoples whims, Im sure you have googled the lastest RLC accounts heres the 2017 which is the lastest I can find.


Some gems include

An increasing cost to the Association is the growing bill for privately employed staff required to backfill what should be Civil Servant posts, but with gaps in the organisation increasing as relocation draws nearer. Funding for private staff required for key outputs, particularly Benevolence, topped £350K in 2017 and is being met through both the RLC Day's Pay Scheme and the RASC & RCT (Restricted) Benevolent funds. The requirement for privately funded staff remains under review and steps are in place to get the MOD to fund those Civil Service positions currently being filled by Agency staff

The blokes appear to be funding what should be Civil Servant posts

23. All serving members ofthe Corps and those retired members of The RLC Association are kept in touch with the many aspects of Corps activities through the medium of the Corps journal 'The Sustainer', now published four times a year. An annual professional 'RLC Foundation Review' is also published by The RLC Foundation. This communication serves to provide closer links with the general public. A total of 10 Newsletter Editions are also published for The RLC Association and our Forming Corps Associations. Total cost of Corps publications and distribution amounts to £69.5K

Four magazines that normally end up in the skip without ever leaving their packaging, just 70k. Bargain

34. The Central Sergeants' Mess, which received a grant of £23K, continues to attract support from the Trustees in recognition of mess members' length of service and contribution to Corps funds and specifically to support the efficiency and morale of this mess. The Headquarters Officers' Mess, to which officers pay some 50% of a Day*s Pay, received £77K fiom The RLC Association Trust Fund in 2016.

Looks like the lads are funding the morale of the Sgt Mess. Y'know that exclusive club.

Not forgetting of course the £250000 that the ODPS has committed to moving the Messes by 2020
So you'd see your benevolent fund cream in because they're using NPF to pay to staff it? I'm sure that there's plenty of widow/ers that would thank you for that. You haven't answered my question on how much you think a 20yr WO1 has paid compared to a 2yr private?
 
So you'd see your benevolent fund cream in because they're using NPF to pay to staff it? I'm sure that there's plenty of widow/ers that would thank you for that. You haven't answered my question on how much you think a 20yr WO1 has paid compared to a 2yr private?
You think the blokes should pay to fund what should be a civil servant positions? No surprise you would **** over the boys eh.

I did answer you, what does the 24 year Cpl get from it? Why should 5 year Sgt benefit?
Once again you make excuses to steal from the juniors. Why dont the Mess (That exclusive club) pay for themselves?
 
You think the blokes should pay to fund what should be a civil servant positions? No surprise you would **** over the boys eh.
I take it you have never tried to establish a MOD CS position? I have, it isn't easy, contractors are the only pollyfilla available. Who else would you have running the benevolent fund in the interim, also what happens if HOC decides that the don't think that this is appropriate use of MOD CS?
I did answer you, what does the 24 year Cpl get from it? Why should 5 year Sgt benefit?
Once again you make excuses to steal from the juniors. Why dont the Mess (That exclusive club) pay for themselves?
How many 24yr Cpls are there FFS compared to your average time done SNCO, not a lot i'd wager.
 
I take it you have never tried to establish a MOD CS position? I have, it isn't easy, contractors are the only pollyfilla available. Who else would you have running the benevolent fund in the interim, also what happens if HOC decides that the don't think that this is appropriate use of MOD CS?

How many 24yr Cpls are there FFS compared to your average time done SNCO, not a lot i'd wager.
I couldnt give a shit how hard it is, why are the lads funding it? 350k thats about 30% of all payments.

There are lots of people who have done 24 years and not made Sgts, whats that got to do with anything? There are literally 1000s of people who leave before they get to Sgt paying for **** all.
Why is it you think its okay that the messes arent paid for by the members?
 
I couldnt give a shit how hard it is, why are the lads funding it? 350k thats about 30% of all payments.

There are lots of people who have done 24 years and not made Sgts, whats that got to do with anything? There are literally 1000s of people who leave before they get to Sgt paying for **** all.
Why is it you think its okay that the messes arent paid for by the members?
Have you been on the turps? What % if the fund is it, forget payments, what’s in the pot?
Those that don’t make Sgt of LE don’t get the benefit of anything that happen for the Messes, but the money supports plenty of other “stuff” that they can take advantage of.
 
Have you been on the turps? What % if the fund is it, forget payments, what’s in the pot?
Those that don’t make Sgt of LE don’t get the benefit of anything that happen for the Messes, but the money supports plenty of other “stuff” that they can take advantage of.
That plenty of other stuff is available for Sgts and above as well.

But hey, keep on justifying why "exclusive" clubs should have junior fund them.

Once again did I miss the bit where you replied to Sarastro saying that soldiers being forced to pay into various funds are widespread? You did say I was exaggerating earlier. Were you mistaken or just lying?
 
That plenty of other stuff is available for Sgts and above as well.

But hey, keep on justifying why "exclusive" clubs should have junior fund them.

Once again did I miss the bit where you replied to Sarastro saying that soldiers being forced to pay into various funds are widespread? You did say I was exaggerating earlier. Were you mistaken or just lying?
My point about it not being widespread/endemic was based on the “lose your weekend or pay for a leaving gift” comments. I don’t see paying into a Corps fund as theft, you do. The vast majority of funds are managed legally and a lot of careers have been broken by people being caught misappropriating said funds, the assurance process is in place to catch them. You, for some reason just don’t like what the money is spent on and that is the sole foundation of your argument.
 
My point about it not being widespread/endemic was based on the “lose your weekend or pay for a leaving gift” comments. I don’t see paying into a Corps fund as theft, you do. The vast majority of funds are managed legally and a lot of careers have been broken by people being caught misappropriating said funds, the assurance process is in place to catch them. You, for some reason just don’t like what the money is spent on and that is the sole foundation of your argument.
Pay attention to the bold

Leave aside the debt collection, the issue is that compelled contributions happen.

There are plenty of subs that soldiers are compelled to pay, with lots of official coercion to make it happen: company dues, PRI funds, COs funds, leaving presents, etc etc. These happen in the rest of the world by people volunteering, but the Army characteristically has turned this into voluntelling people.

The fact it is senior and line managers compelling people to pay money, and (generally) also the only people benefiting (either from leaving presents or from being the decision makers about how to spend funds), makes it even worse. In any other organisation it would be a scandal, and probably is one waiting to happen in the Army.

@stacker1 is completely right, and anyone who disagrees is either blind or complicit. You really can't claim it doesn't happen. It's simply so widespread and visible. The Army widely accepts senior ranks extorting junior ranks, just because it's what is done. That's the bottom line.
 
I think you did read it, you now realise that yet again you were wrong and are now pretending that its only the RLC and because the Officers pay a higher percentage of the wage (But collectively much lower) to cover up for the fact that (once again) you didnt know what you are talking about.

No I never went to an AGM, despite the fact I never actually knew when most of them were, do you think I should have flown over from Germany to attend them? But lets say I did, all that would have happened is that I would have been marked down as not a team player. I have fought for the last three years in my sqn/regt to stop ******* boys over and that was a struggle enough. However do you think people need to be told not to steal from their soldiers.

As to your final one, the soldiers are still being robbed for other peoples whims, Im sure you have googled the lastest RLC accounts heres the 2017 which is the lastest I can find.


Some gems include

An increasing cost to the Association is the growing bill for privately employed staff required to backfill what should be Civil Servant posts, but with gaps in the organisation increasing as relocation draws nearer. Funding for private staff required for key outputs, particularly Benevolence, topped £350K in 2017 and is being met through both the RLC Day's Pay Scheme and the RASC & RCT (Restricted) Benevolent funds. The requirement for privately funded staff remains under review and steps are in place to get the MOD to fund those Civil Service positions currently being filled by Agency staff

The blokes appear to be funding what should be Civil Servant posts

23. All serving members ofthe Corps and those retired members of The RLC Association are kept in touch with the many aspects of Corps activities through the medium of the Corps journal 'The Sustainer', now published four times a year. An annual professional 'RLC Foundation Review' is also published by The RLC Foundation. This communication serves to provide closer links with the general public. A total of 10 Newsletter Editions are also published for The RLC Association and our Forming Corps Associations. Total cost of Corps publications and distribution amounts to £69.5K

Four magazines that normally end up in the skip without ever leaving their packaging, just 70k. Bargain

34. The Central Sergeants' Mess, which received a grant of £23K, continues to attract support from the Trustees in recognition of mess members' length of service and contribution to Corps funds and specifically to support the efficiency and morale of this mess. The Headquarters Officers' Mess, to which officers pay some 50% of a Day*s Pay, received £77K fiom The RLC Association Trust Fund in 2016.

Looks like the lads are funding the morale of the Sgt Mess. Y'know that exclusive club.

Not forgetting of course the £250000 that the ODPS has committed to moving the Messes by 2020
Why the **** would I read RLC account? I have zero interest in your former Corps’ accounts. What you can’t do is extrapolate from what went on a decade ago with the RLCs non public accounts and blame Army wide (or even RLC) retention in it. You have no evidence of cause and effect, just a chip on your shoulder.

I any event, I don’t really see much wrong with what you published anyway. The grant to the Officers Mess seems reasonable given that officers are paying an extra half days pay. The grant to the Sergeants Mess also seems reasonable given that seniors have made years of contributions. And paying salaries is reasonable if the activity needs doing - in what planet is the production of a regimental magazine something taxpayers should be funding?

The point remains though, the money was paid in voluntarily, the trustees were appointed by member voter and the mechanisms to hold the trustees accountable are in place. All you had to do was use them; go to the AGM, write to to Trustees etc etc. Or simply stop paying in.
 
Why the **** would I read RLC account? I have zero interest in your former Corps’ accounts. What you can’t do is extrapolate from what went on a decade ago with the RLCs non public accounts and blame Army wide (or even RLC) retention in it. You have no evidence of cause and effect, just a chip on your shoulder.

I any event, I don’t really see much wrong with what you published anyway. The grant to the Officers Mess seems reasonable given that officers are paying an extra half days pay. The grant to the Sergeants Mess also seems reasonable given that seniors have made years of contributions. And paying salaries is reasonable if the activity needs doing - in what planet is the production of a regimental magazine something taxpayers should be funding?

The point remains though, the money was paid in voluntarily, the trustees were appointed by member voter and the mechanisms to hold the trustees accountable are in place. All you had to do was use them; go to the AGM, write to to Trustees etc etc. Or simply stop paying in.
You would read it because I gave the link to the thread for you to read when you "doubted" what I said.

Naturally some business expert, who left the British Army, joined the Aussie military (forgetting what nationality he was in the process) and then runs some sort of internet Avon shop would deny that being forced to pay for something at the whim of officers affects morale.

You have now changed your tune and decided that the Messes are taking the money but that is okay because you think that the individuals have paid more.

You then lie and pretend Ive said taxpayers should pay for the Corps mag. Care to quote me where I said that?... I thought not because you are talking bollocks as per usual. No one should be paying for the Corps Mag because no one reads the ******* thing, in an effort to pretend they care they reduced the publication from 12 a year to 4. In any RLC regiment you will see the vast majority moved from the post bunk to the skip without being looked at.

The point remains other people apart from me say that soldiers are coerced, do you want to be like Kroneit and just ignore Sarastro post because it show you up to being the waffling twat that you are?
 
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You would read it because I gave the link to the thread for you to read when you "doubted" what I said.

Naturally some business expert, who left the British Army, joined the Aussie (forgetting what nationality he was in the process) and then runs some sort of internet Avon shop would deny that being forced to pay for something at the whim of officers affects morale.

You have now change your tune and decided that the messes are taking the money but that is okay because you think that the individual have paid more.

You then lie and pretend Ive said taxpayers should pay for the Corps mag. Care to quote me where I said that?... I thought not because you are talking bollocks as per usual. No one should be paying for the Corps Mag because no one reads the ******* thing, in an effort to pretend they care they reduced the publication for 12 a year to 4. In Any RLC regiment you will see the vast majority moved from the post bunk to the skip without being looked at.

The point remains other people apart from me say that soldiers are coerced, do you want to be like Kroneit and just ignore Sarastro post because it show you up to being the waffling twat that you are?
Not interested in your insults; the business I created provides me with a very comfortable lifestyle and employs people. Your sneers just demonstrate your lack of ability to debate. A shame really, as you have a point.

But you throw words like coercion, stealing and extortion around emotively. If soldiers are being coerced into paying, why aren’t they making Service Complaints? If you, as a Troop senior NCO felt wrongly pressured to persuade soldiers to contribute, why didn’t you make a Service Complaint? And, tell us, did your Troop run troop funds? If you did, on what authority did you do so?

It might be worth looking at what other Corps do with their charitable trusts. My own Corps has, for example, created an employment agency that connects serving and former Sappers with job opportunities. It’s also helping members of other arms and services. It also turned it’s Institution into a properly accredited professional body which provides Sappers with a clear progression through globally recognised engineering qualifications. And yet benevolence is still it’s largest expenditure.

As ever, you are selectively picking grievances to support a wider argument.
 
Not interested in your insults; the business I created provides me with a very comfortable lifestyle and employs people. Your sneers just demonstrate your lack of ability to debate. A shame really, as you have a point.

But you throw words like coercion, stealing and extortion around emotively. If soldiers are being coerced into paying, why aren’t they making Service Complaints? If you, as a Troop senior NCO felt wrongly pressured to persuade soldiers to contribute, why didn’t you make a Service Complaint? And, tell us, did your Troop run troop funds? If you did, on what authority did you do so?

It might be worth looking at what other Corps do with their charitable trusts. My own Corps has, for example, created an employment agency that connects serving and former Sappers with job opportunities. It’s also helping members of other arms and services. It also turned it’s Institution into a properly accredited professional body which provides Sappers with a clear progression through globally recognised engineering qualifications. And yet benevolence is still it’s largest expenditure.

As ever, you are selectively picking grievances to support a wider argument.
How is it an insult? I'm just saying what has happened mister big shot businessman

Why arent they making complaints? Because cnuts like you and kroneits will deny it or say that they meant something else and the thickie tom misunderstood. Unless everyone else on this thread, other threads and who wrote into the soldier mag are lying.

I didnt have Troop funds, unlike some of the spastics on here I was capable of persuading the majority of my Troop to do something without having to threaten them if they didnt.

Selectively picking grievances am I? Am I forcing anyone else to same similar to me?
Perhaps you want to call Sarastro a liar? Or will you be like Kroneit and ignore what he says because it doesnt fit your view?
 
How is it an insult? I'm just saying what has happened mister big shot businessman

Why arent they making complaints? Because cnuts like you and kroneits will deny it or say that they meant something else and the thickie tom misunderstood. Unless everyone else on this thread, other threads and who wrote into the soldier mag are lying.

I didnt have Troop funds, unlike some of the spastics on here I was capable of persuading the majority of my Troop to do something without having to threaten them if they didnt.

Selectively picking grievances am I? Am I forcing anyone else to same similar to me?
Perhaps you want to call Sarastro a liar? Or will you be like Kroneit and ignore what he says because it doesnt fit your view?
Read your post again and explain what the sneery bit about my business “some sort of an Avon shop” (which couldn’t be further from the truth) has to do with the topic we are debating. And tell me how “kunts like you” isn’t an insult.

And no, I’m not accusing anyone of lying. I’m debating an issue in which I have a counter view. Again you use emotive language because you don’t have facts.

So go on, where are all the service complaints from soldiers who were coerced, extorted or stolen from? Did you front up to the RSM, your OC or CO? Of course you didn’t.
 
Read your post again and explain what the sneery bit about my business “some sort of an Avon shop” (which couldn’t be further from the truth) has to do with the topic we are debating. And tell me how “kunts like you” isn’t an insult.

And no, I’m not accusing anyone of lying. I’m debating an issue in which I have a counter view. Again you use emotive language because you don’t have facts.

So go on, where are all the service complaints from soldiers who were coerced, extorted or stolen from? Did you front up to the RSM, your OC or CO? Of course you didn’t.
So not as successful as Avon then?
It is cnuts like you that deny anything is wrong then blame millenials for wanting to leave the army.
Can you clarify something for me. Is Sarastro talking bollocks or not in your opinion? No waffle just a yes or no will suffice.
I stood up to my SSM over Cpl Mess bills, I'll never know if the useless, unrespected brown nosing prick who got his WO1 and commission ever put im a bad word against me, but I suspect he did.
You know full well that the soldier mag has been full of complaints of soldiers being told to pay. Was that all made up? Was anything done other than Brigadier Bellthronk telling those complaining to take it up with their CoC?
 
So not as successful as Avon then?
It is cnuts like you that deny anything is wrong then blame millenials for wanting to leave the army.
Can you clarify something for me. Is Sarastro talking bollocks or not in your opinion? No waffle just a yes or no will suffice.
I stood up to my SSM over Cpl Mess bills, I'll never know if the useless, unrespected brown nosing prick who got his WO1 and commission ever put im a bad word against me, but I suspect he did.
You know full well that the soldier mag has been full of complaints of soldiers being told to pay. Was that all made up? Was anything done other than Brigadier Bellthronk telling those complaining to take it up with their CoC?
1. We don’t compete with Avon.

2. At no stage have i blamed millennials for wanting to leave the Army. Quite the opposite; I blamed the Army for not adapting its recruiting, employment and retention activities to attract, recruit and retain digitally native Gen Z. It’s not like the rest of the world isn’t do so.

3. No, I don’t agree with Sarastro or anyone else who claims that the Army operates a coercive system to extract money from its soldiers.

4. You’ve provided an example of a toxic warrant officer. Rather contradicts your argument that all the Army’s ills are the fault of its commissioned officers.

5. Yet again you use abusive language and childishly get round the swear filter. Calling someone you have never met a kunt is rather pathetic.

6. BTW I entered this debate by agreeing with you that COs should be held responsible for retention in their unit. I disagree with the position that too much is outwith the COs control.
 
6. BTW I entered this debate by agreeing with you that COs should be held responsible for retention in their unit. I disagree with the position that too much is outwith the COs control.
Held responsible but not accountable? I don't think this is the case at the moment, though the "climate assessment" process looks at unit morale, including families. I think a lot rests on Unit 2ICs, and R Sigs is currently seeing the impact to some weak ones seeking pink.
As for your second point, I think that the CO can only effect morale locally, not Corps or Army direction that I've seen a few punch out for.
 

FEASG

LE
... and pl comds' tours, coy comds', etc ..... fine, agreed 100%, except that it's not just about enabling continuity but giving others a chance to do the "plum jobs" (if they've earnt it). If there are no vacancies for COs, etc, then what incentive do those who can never get the job regardless of how good they are have to stay?
That's fine if the point of the Forces is to support the MS self licking lolly pop, but it's not is it?
 

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