Army Chief in Afghanistan is told he WONT GET REQUESTED KIT

Should the Army expect the Govt to meet its promises?

  • Yes it is part of the covenant between the Nation and its military

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No don’t be naive

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Only if the media keep chasing them

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Only if it is cost effective

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The MoD has everything under control get back to your tasks

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
#1
I have taken this from the Afghanistan thread, apologies hansvonhealing, as I think it should get special attention.

Army fury as chief in Afghanistan is told he won't get vital armour

The senior Army officer who will command British troops in Afghanistan next year is embroiled in a furious row with the Ministry of Defence after learning he will be denied vital armour to protect his men.

Brigadier John Lorimer, who will take charge of more than 5,000 troops in the spring, issued a 'shopping list' of requirements after a week-long recce in volatile Helmand province, the stronghold of Taliban fighters.

The tough and experienced Parachute Regiment officer asked for up to 12 Challenger 2 tanks, 14 Warrior armoured vehicles and four AS90 artillery guns - plus an extra 600-strong battalion of troops.

But he has been told by senior MoD officials that his requests will be denied.

A source close to 43-year-old Brigadier Lorimer, who commands 12 Mechanised Brigade, said: "He has been told that there is little likelihood of him getting his tanks. He is extremely unhappy about this. He is disappointed and frustrated."

The MoD snub comes just six weeks after Tony Blair promised on TV: "If the commanders on the ground want more equipment, armoured vehicles for example, more helicopters, that will be provided. Whatever package they want, we will do."

A senior Army source told The Mail on Sunday last night: "The denial of John Lorimer's operational requirements shows how empty Blair's words were.

"The Taliban are certain to launch a major offensive in Helmand next spring and the Brigadier wanted the extra armour to protect his men. No chance, as his requests were rejected in their entirety.

"Officers in 12 Mech Brigade see this as as a dereliction of duty by Defence Ministers. Lorimer still hasn't been given an explanation. One can only assume it's to do with lack of availability, equipment shortages and cost-saving."

Last night Shadow Defence Secretary Dr Liam Fox said: "This insult to the man taking over as commander of our troops in Afghanistan proves that no one, including those on the front line, can take seriously a word that Tony Blair says.

"He is not trusted by anyone and he should go now. He promises everything and gives nothing. His words are not worth the breath he uses to say them."

The row is yet another example of Labour's volatile relationship with Armed Forces top brass. Last month Mr Blair was left reeling after General Sir Richard Dannatt, Chief of the General Staff, said British troops should come home from Iraq within two years and warned that the Army could 'break' if British soldiers were kept there too long.

Brigadier Lorimer came to prominence as the commander of British troops in Basra in September last year, when he ordered 40 SAS men to storm an Iraqi police station where two undercover Special Boat Service (SBS) troopers were being held captive by armed militia.

British Warriors bulldozed their way in to rescue the SBS pair. Three soldiers had to jump clear from a Warrior with their clothes on fire after being petrol-bombed by insurgents.

The deployment of 12 Mechanised Brigade in Afghanistan will last six months. The lead infantry element will be the 1st Battalion Royal Anglian Regiment, backed by troops from 19 Field Regiment Royal Artillery, 26 Engineer Regiment, two squadrons of Light Dragoons and men from the 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards.

Yesterday the MoD took the unusual step of issuing a statement on behalf of Brigadier Lorimer. It said: "Suggestions that I am angry or frustrated are simply not true. I have conducted my reconnaissance and made recommendations. I am perfectly happy that those are being considered in the normal way and I am closely involved in that process."

An MoD spokesman said: "No decisions about the force package for Afghanistan in 2007 have been taken and no requests have been turned down."

www.dailymail.co.uk/pa...ge_id=1770
 
#2
Methinks the British Army is starting to play the Govt at their own game. Hurrah. I am sure the good brigadier will get his kit in the end, Tony promised he would you see. Now would the RAF kindly start feeding their requests into the Mail or the Telegraph please......
 
#3
Just to state to the Mods that AJ consulted me before posting and that I agreed this story should have as wide an audience as possible.
On the story itself, the question I asked in the Afghan fighting thread was 'is it just the Mail or was he forced to retract'?
 
#4
armchair_jihad said:
......Yesterday the MoD took the unusual step of issuing a statement on behalf of Brigadier Lorimer. It said: "Suggestions that I am angry or frustrated are simply not true. I have conducted my reconnaissance and made recommendations. I am perfectly happy that those are being considered in the normal way and I am closely involved in that process."

An MoD spokesman said: "No decisions about the force package for Afghanistan in 2007 have been taken and no requests have been turned down."........
Notwithstanding my normal scepticism about official statements, all of that rings true to me. Someone seems to think they can 'help' the process by leaking an embroidered version of reality to the press (Hmm - Daily Mail - I use the word 'Press' loosely). Experience suggests such 'help' actually damages the trust between military, civil servants and ministers and makes it more difficult to do what needs to be done.

It isn't the first time it's happened and, sadly, it probably won't be the last. But after all the support for CGS last month, it's a shame we don't all support his line that leaks are damaging and unhelpful.

Don
 
#5
This thread is all well and good but have the troops got everything they need now?

Winter is upon our troops in Afghanistan and the threat has probably increased now the new boys are used to their TAOR and are fully into their missions. The recent news that we have apparently engaged civilians bears this out (as they do more the clamour of "they shot at innocent civilians" will just increase).

Did they need/get their additional helicopters? Are their suitable spares for the in-theatre Air Transport Fleet (propellers for example :roll: )? Are they getting any armour/specialist vehicles they might need now?

Stories like AJ's. whilst fully correct allow the MOD to simply quote things like:

No decisions about the force package for Afghanistan in 2007 have been taken and no requests have been turned down.
:cry:

Pressure needs to be bought to bear about what is happening now, with the Commander on the ground and missions to fulfil. Letting the MOD rebuff a Commanders opinion as he is not there yet or claim they are considering all the implications just lets them get off the hook!
 
#6
armchair_jihad said:
I have taken this from the Afghanistan thread, apologies hansvonhealing, as I think it should get special attention.

Army fury as chief in Afghanistan is told he won't get vital armour


Yesterday the MoD took the unusual step of issuing a statement on behalf of Brigadier Lorimer. It said: "Suggestions that I am angry or frustrated are simply not true. I have conducted my reconnaissance and made recommendations. I am perfectly happy that those are being considered in the normal way and I am closely involved in that process."

An MoD spokesman said: "No decisions about the force package for Afghanistan in 2007 have been taken and no requests have been turned down."

www.dailymail.co.uk/pa...ge_id=1770
Yesterday the MoD took the unusual step of issuing a statement on behalf of Brigadier Lorimar

Isn’t that so sweet that the mod issued the statement on behalf of Brigadier Lorimar

So that it won’t spoil the mod Christmas and upset anyone

Don’t worry about Brigadier Lorimar he is only making Joe public aware what is actually going to happen because he is rightly concerned about his soldier’s safety which is paramount after learning he will be denied vital armour to protect his men.

The mod excuse is No decisions about the force package for Afghanistan in 2007 have been taken and no requests have been turned down."........

Let’s hope that next year we don’t have any fatality and casualties because the mod failed to do there job properly.
Our soldier’s safety is paramount and the mod should recognize this
 
#7
Blair made the promise that the armed forces will get everything they want. Queue open season. If MoD say no to requests, quick chat with a friendly journo and hey presto it is in the public domain. Blair is now on the case and does not want to be seen to be making promises he cannot deliver. I confidently predict Brigadier Lorimer will get his kit. Only problem is, what happens when Br00n takes over?
 
#8
nigegilb said:
Blair made the promise that the armed forces will get everything they want.......... Blair is now on the case and does not want to be seen to be making promises he cannot deliver....... I confidently predict Brigadier Lorimer will get his kit.
Nigeglib old love, don't be opening your front door to any stone cladding salesman.......... :D
 
#9
armchair_jihad said:
I have taken this from the Afghanistan thread, apologies hansvonhealing, as I think it should get special attention.

Army fury as chief in Afghanistan is told he won't get vital armour

The senior Army officer who will command British troops in Afghanistan next year is embroiled in a furious row with the Ministry of Defence after learning he will be denied vital armour to protect his men.

Brigadier John Lorimer, who will take charge of more than 5,000 troops in the spring, issued a 'shopping list' of requirements after a week-long recce in volatile Helmand province, the stronghold of Taliban fighters.

The tough and experienced Parachute Regiment officer asked for up to 12 Challenger 2 tanks, 14 Warrior armoured vehicles and four AS90 artillery guns - plus an extra 600-strong battalion of troops.

But he has been told by senior MoD officials that his requests will be denied.

A source close to 43-year-old Brigadier Lorimer, who commands 12 Mechanised Brigade, said: "He has been told that there is little likelihood of him getting his tanks. He is extremely unhappy about this. He is disappointed and frustrated."

The MoD snub comes just six weeks after Tony Blair promised on TV: "If the commanders on the ground want more equipment, armoured vehicles for example, more helicopters, that will be provided. Whatever package they want, we will do."

A senior Army source told The Mail on Sunday last night: "The denial of John Lorimer's operational requirements shows how empty Blair's words were.

"The Taliban are certain to launch a major offensive in Helmand next spring and the Brigadier wanted the extra armour to protect his men. No chance, as his requests were rejected in their entirety.

"Officers in 12 Mech Brigade see this as as a dereliction of duty by Defence Ministers. Lorimer still hasn't been given an explanation. One can only assume it's to do with lack of availability, equipment shortages and cost-saving."

Last night Shadow Defence Secretary Dr Liam Fox said: "This insult to the man taking over as commander of our troops in Afghanistan proves that no one, including those on the front line, can take seriously a word that Tony Blair says.

"He is not trusted by anyone and he should go now. He promises everything and gives nothing. His words are not worth the breath he uses to say them."

The row is yet another example of Labour's volatile relationship with Armed Forces top brass. Last month Mr Blair was left reeling after General Sir Richard Dannatt, Chief of the General Staff, said British troops should come home from Iraq within two years and warned that the Army could 'break' if British soldiers were kept there too long.

Brigadier Lorimer came to prominence as the commander of British troops in Basra in September last year, when he ordered 40 SAS men to storm an Iraqi police station where two undercover Special Boat Service (SBS) troopers were being held captive by armed militia.

British Warriors bulldozed their way in to rescue the SBS pair. Three soldiers had to jump clear from a Warrior with their clothes on fire after being petrol-bombed by insurgents.

The deployment of 12 Mechanised Brigade in Afghanistan will last six months. The lead infantry element will be the 1st Battalion Royal Anglian Regiment, backed by troops from 19 Field Regiment Royal Artillery, 26 Engineer Regiment, two squadrons of Light Dragoons and men from the 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards.

Yesterday the MoD took the unusual step of issuing a statement on behalf of Brigadier Lorimer. It said: "Suggestions that I am angry or frustrated are simply not true. I have conducted my reconnaissance and made recommendations. I am perfectly happy that those are being considered in the normal way and I am closely involved in that process."

An MoD spokesman said: "No decisions about the force package for Afghanistan in 2007 have been taken and no requests have been turned down."

www.dailymail.co.uk/pa...ge_id=1770
Can anyone tell me what this means :roll:
 
#12
Sven said:
An MoD spokesman said: "No decisions about the force package for Afghanistan in 2007 have been taken and no requests have been turned down."

Can anyone tell me what this means :roll:
Yes its called Media handling: plausible deniability variant, same gambit as before the whole Iraq invas - no sorry liberation kicked off, problem is the kit is not ready or in place when you 'make' (announce) the decision, but it keeps it out of the papers for a few weeks.
 
#13
So it doesn't mean that a decision hasn't been made then???

Incidentally, who was it that gave the story to the Mail on Sunday??
 
#14
camolynx said:
armchair_jihad said:
The mod excuse is No decisions about the force package for Afghanistan in 2007 have been taken and no requests have been turned down."........

Let’s hope that next year we don’t have any fatality and casualties because the mod failed to do there job properly.
Our soldier’s safety is paramount and the mod should recognize this
It's soldiers' (plural) and recognise! This is a British Army website, in case you'd forgotten. Please don't "septicise" it with (nominally) bad English.

The British gobment, in all its history, has never given a flying fück about the wo/men who serve it so diligently. So why should we expect any different from Phoney Tony and his disreputable band?

MsG
 
#15
Bugsy said:
armchair_jihad said:
The mod excuse is No decisions about the force package for Afghanistan in 2007 have been taken and no requests have been turned down."........

Let’s hope that next year we don’t have any fatality and casualties because the mod failed to do there job properly.
Our soldier’s safety is paramount and the mod should recognize this
It's soldiers' (plural) and recognise! This is a British Army website, in case you'd forgotten.Please don't "septicise" it with (nominally) bad English.

The British gobment, in all its history, has never given a flying fück about the wo/men who serve it so diligently. So why should we expect any different from Phoney Tony and his disreputable band?MsG
Bugsy please amend your post I said no such thing.
 
#16
As my Husband is one of the many members of the 12th Mech going out to Afghanistan next year I am sure I don't need to spell out my opinion on this matter. Thanks for bringing it to my attention AJ I will be keeping an eye on this more closesly now.
 
#17
Bugsy said:
camolynx said:
armchair_jihad said:
The mod excuse is No decisions about the force package for Afghanistan in 2007 have been taken and no requests have been turned down."........

Let’s hope that next year we don’t have any fatality and casualties because the mod failed to do there job properly.
Our soldier’s safety is paramount and the mod should recognize this
It's soldiers' (plural) and recognise! This is a British Army website, in case you'd forgotten. Please don't "septicise" it with (nominally) bad English.

The British gobment, in all its history, has never given a flying fück about the wo/men who serve it so diligently. So why should we expect any different from Phoney Tony and his disreputable band?

MsG
If you want to play at pedantantry, either form of the -ise or -ize spelling is fine, with the -ize ending technically more correct (-ise is a modern introduction from the French spelling). See JSP 101 Chap 1 para 6 for more details.
 
#18
Bugsy said:
camolynx said:
armchair_jihad said:
The mod excuse is No decisions about the force package for Afghanistan in 2007 have been taken and no requests have been turned down."........

Let’s hope that next year we don’t have any fatality and casualties because the mod failed to do there job properly.
Our soldier’s safety is paramount and the mod should recognize this
It's soldiers' (plural) and recognise! This is a British Army website, in case you'd forgotten. Please don't "septicise" it with (nominally) bad English.

The British gobment, in all its history, has never given a flying fück about the wo/men who serve it so diligently. So why should we expect any different from Phoney Tony and his disreputable band?

MsG
Checking grammar is a national sport of mine but only when the writer is unable to string a coherent sentence together! Bugsy, give it a rest in this case, you dick...
 
#20
What I quoted was this:
Bugsy said:
camolynx said:
armchair_jihad said:
The mod excuse is No decisions about the force package for Afghanistan in 2007 have been taken and no requests have been turned down."........

Let’s hope that next year we don’t have any fatality and casualties because the mod failed to do there job properly.
Our soldier’s safety is paramount and the mod should recognize this
It's soldiers' (plural) and recognise! This is a British Army website, in case you'd forgotten. Please don't "septicise" it with (nominally) bad English.

The British gobment, in all its history, has never given a flying fück about the wo/men who serve it so diligently. So why should we expect any different from Phoney Tony and his disreputable band?

MsG
What I meant to quote was this:
camolynx said:
The mod excuse is No decisions about the force package for Afghanistan in 2007 have been taken and no requests have been turned down."........

Let’s hope that next year we don’t have any fatality and casualties because the mod failed to do there job properly.
Our soldier’s safety is paramount and the mod should recognize this
It looks as if armchair_jihad was responsible for the quote, which is in no way the case. Sorry about the confusion!

MsG
 

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