Army abuse trial collapses

#61
#62
I know the last thread on this was halted as it was a current trial. As it is no longer a current trial, it seemed pertinent to discuss it again, posing the question, is the court martial system still fit for purpose, or is it too open to being less than transparent?

'Flawed' probe into Army instructors' abuse claims halted - 'Flawed' Army abuse trial halted
 
#65
Given some of the interested groups (e.g. the one that wants to equate the ACF with an African child militia)I expect the next moves to be proposals for :
  • All offences involving minors to investigated by civilian police
  • All offences Involving minors to be tried in magistrates or crown courts
  • Civilian observers at all places/courses where minors are trained.
The end game for some of the "interested parties" being the disbandment of cadet organisations.
 
#66
Can anyone unfortunately say they are surprised this has happened? I'm not. They are a joke & need to be removed from the investigation of anything other than traffic offences around camps & providing CP teams.
Let CIVPOL take over the remit with a dedicated, sub-command/division with specialists of ex-mil background or suitably up skilled coppers.
Any reason why the MOD Police, couldn't take up the role? They're a professional policing organizat.............
Nope couldn't quite get to the end of the sentence without giggling
 

ExREME..TECH

On ROPS
On ROPs
#67
Sorry, when I searched I only found the thread that was not open for further replies. Mods knock this on the head then?
I just didn't want you shouted at...
 
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Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
#68
This is how the army website described RMP Officers
As an Officer in the Royal Military Police (RMP) you are both a British Army Officer and a Police Officer. You command a highly skilled platoon of Military Police Soldiers and support the wider Army, going abroad on operations. Whether you’re overseas or at home, you’ll conduct complex investigations, using your outstanding training. Specialist courses in Serious Crime Investigations and Close Protection expand your knowledge, along with civilian qualifications. With new challenges every day, it’s a fascinating and varied role.
Is the role of police officer and army commissioned officer compatible? Are the army training their RMP officers sufficiently?

I obviously don't know all the ins and outs of this case but an RMP officer saying she did not take witness statements because she thought they would lie to her makes it sound like she was acting not as a police officer but a regimental officer.

Once again the army is left looking bad and in this case looks to me that this officers training was more how to be a British army officer than being a police officer. It also seems to me that the army don't know what they want from RMP officers. Maybe the civpol method of two years at the coalface prior to promotion to higher rank may just work in this instance, followed or including thorough training in police methods and procedures.
 
#69
This is how the army website described RMP Officers

Is the role of police officer and army commissioned officer compatible? Are the army training their RMP officers sufficiently?

I obviously don't know all the ins and outs of this case but an RMP officer saying she did not take witness statements because she thought they would lie to her makes it sound like she was acting not as a police officer but a regimental officer.

Once again the army is left looking bad and in this case looks to me that this officers training was more how to be a British army officer than being a police officer. It also seems to me that the army don't know what they want from RMP officers. Maybe the civpol method of two years at the coalface prior to promotion to higher rank may just work in this instance, followed or including thorough training in police methods and procedures.
Officers in GPD do not carry out investigations - they manage people who do ( bit like DE officers in R Signals commanding the men but leaving the comms/techy stuff to the Supervisors). However, officers in SIB (in addition to managing SIB investigators) do get involved in investigations that are deemed high profile or cases with implications. All those in the Feds (commissioned or otherwise) have completed the Special Investigations Course.

I think I know the individual concerned so not going to comment specifically about this, apart from to say that as an ex-Monkey I can't see how it got to trial. And the decision to proceed to trial is not an SIB one to make.
 
#70
This is how the army website described RMP Officers

Is the role of police officer and army commissioned officer compatible? Are the army training their RMP officers sufficiently?

I obviously don't know all the ins and outs of this case but an RMP officer saying she did not take witness statements because she thought they would lie to her makes it sound like she was acting not as a police officer but a regimental officer.

Once again the army is left looking bad and in this case looks to me that this officers training was more how to be a British army officer than being a police officer. It also seems to me that the army don't know what they want from RMP officers. Maybe the civpol method of two years at the coalface prior to promotion to higher rank may just work in this instance, followed or including thorough training in police methods and procedures.
Someone said upthread that the officer in question is an LE.

20 years as a practicing Monkey and then commissioned. If she had an arse/elbow recognition problem, then the rest of them are truly screwed.

What irritates me more than anything is that the facts have not been determined. Either the kids got bullied, and the instructors should be harshly punished, or the instructors are innocent and should have had their day in court. Double jeopardy and all that, none of this will now happen. Whoever dropped the ball, whether it was individuals in the RMP, collective policy in the RMP, individuals in SPA or collective policy in SPA, they need a rocket up their arse for this.

It's completely unacceptable to me (speaking as a former instructor).
 
#71
Someone said upthread that the officer in question is an LE.

20 years as a practicing Monkey and then commissioned. If she had an arse/elbow recognition problem, then the rest of them are truly screwed.

What irritates me more than anything is that the facts have not been determined. Either the kids got bullied, and the instructors should be harshly punished, or the instructors are innocent and should have had their day in court. Double jeopardy and all that, none of this will now happen. Whoever dropped the ball, whether it was individuals in the RMP, collective policy in the RMP, individuals in SPA or collective policy in SPA, they need a rocket up their arse for this.

It's completely unacceptable to me (speaking as a former instructor).
Completely agree.
 
#72
Yet more astonishment. What is a court martial, if not "internal discipline"?

Exactly as you say - "No Sir, I do not accept your award. I was acquitted at CM, so you can fcuking poke it. A Service Complaint will follow".
In much the same way that Police Officers who are acquitted at court, then face Gross Misconduct or Misconduct hearings on the balance of probabilities and are dismissed or disciplined if found against.
 
#73
I just can't see how anyone couldn't see there were going to be problems with the investigation if all that's been reported is correct, seems to me it wouldn't have got past a GPD section sergeant so I can't see how the prosecuting authorities agreed to run with it
 

MoleBath

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#74
Whenever any of my soldiers were being mobilised I had 2 big pieces of advise in case of serious questioning
(1) Don't trust unknown officers
(2) Remember these guys and NEVER make a statement until speaking to your brief
1521483147110.png


On a practical note remember to always use a hard backing sheet beneath log sheets unless you want to leave traces on the next sheet down (google edsa)
 

Sarastro

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#75
Officers in GPD do not carry out investigations - they manage people who do ( bit like DE officers in R Signals commanding the men but leaving the comms/techy stuff to the Supervisors). However, officers in SIB (in addition to managing SIB investigators) do get involved in investigations that are deemed high profile or cases with implications. All those in the Feds (commissioned or otherwise) have completed the Special Investigations Course.

I think I know the individual concerned so not going to comment specifically about this, apart from to say that as an ex-Monkey I can't see how it got to trial. And the decision to proceed to trial is not an SIB one to make.
In which case, perhaps the whole pipeline and system needs to be reformed then.

I know nothing of this case, but I was intimately involved with a number of SIB investigations on operations, at different points over what I presume was at least 3 SIB sections (correct terminology?). Sorry to report that they were, to various degrees, all, a complete and obvious bag of balls to even the casual and untrained eye. Failing to interview witnesses or to interview adequately was only one of several fuckups. I also saw them actively refuse to consider information, after we tried to get them a waiver to see a key piece of classified J2: their answer was that they didn't need to see it if it couldn't be admitted in court...even though it was clearly explained to them that the info was 100% reliable (it does happen!) and invalidated their case hypothesis. They generally gave the impression that they knew what had happened several minutes after arriving at a scene, and then spent the next few weeks slowly and rigorously proving themselves correct. In that case, even after being proven, with no room for doubt, wrong.

It was bad enough that the last time a formal complaint (e.g. summary of numerous mistakes seen and their impact on a major case) was requested by COS TFH from the other four stakeholders involved in an incident. It was unwritten after the FPM got involved among several of the "grown ups" with his Respec Mai Authoritai independent chain of command shtick.

Luckily in most of those cases there were enough others involved to identify and correct the errors. One result of the above was the SIB were forced to share investigative responsibility with others in Afghanistan. But that says nothing about the years of previous cases where the SIB have had untrammelled authority, nor about their behaviour in the UK.

No axe to grind here, I wasn't the target of any of these investigations, I was a separate investigator. But however it may have been done in your day, or should be done now, I'm afraid my experiences were such that I flat out don't trust the reliability any RMP investigation. Incompetence, unfortunately, was that ingrained across multiple different units and individuals.
 
#76
Well, I am outraged. Look:
"Sgt Mark Graham, 31, of the HQ Defence Food Services School, Royal Logistic Corps, accused of four charges of ill-treatment. He was cleared of all charges"
A military chef got cleared of ill-treating people? How much evidence do they neeeed?
 
#77
Time and time again, the RMP f+ck up investigations. Its about time the witless morons are returned to their original role. Custody/Detention guards and convoy escorts
 
#78
Whenever any of my soldiers were being mobilised I had 2 big pieces of advise in case of serious questioning
(1) Don't trust unknown officers
(2) Remember these guys and NEVER make a statement until speaking to your brief
View attachment 327098

On a practical note remember to always use a hard backing sheet beneath log sheets unless you want to leave traces on the next sheet down (google edsa)
I just lurv this quote -

"It emerged the RMP officer leading the investigation, Capt Teresa Spanton, did not question eyewitnesses because she thought they would lie".

I wonder if she extends that approach to another group of people who have a right proper tendency to fib - offenders and suspects?
Or is she going to be further disillusioned when she realises that they often lie through their teeth too?
 
#79
I know the last thread on this was halted as it was a current trial. As it is no longer a current trial, it seemed pertinent to discuss it again, posing the question, is the court martial system still fit for purpose, or is it too open to being less than transparent?

'Flawed' probe into Army instructors' abuse claims halted - 'Flawed' Army abuse trial halted
The trial worked. The RMP failed.
 

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