• This is a stand-to for an incoming competition, one of our most expensive yet.
    Later this week we're going to be offering the opportunity to Win £270 Rab Neutrino Pro military down jacket
    Visit the thread at that link above and Watch it to be notified as soon as the competition goes live

Army abuse trial collapses

I fully recognise that the RMP has a thankless role and does much good work. It's a deeply difficult task which has been set them and the vast majority of RMP members do a pretty good job at what they do, whether it's general police duties, SIB or close protection. As noted, it's often unit hierarchies who make their job even more challenging.

All that said (and sincerely), I do find RMP as a body and as many individuals I've met, pretty hard to warm to and the suggestion that they are respected is pretty far from my experience. Tolerated, reluctantly, sure. Grudgingly accepted under most circumstances, sure. Respected and trusted? Not in my experience. It only takes one gobshite arrogant long-in-the tooth full screw or one weaselly SIB staffie to undo many months' patient work by the good ones - and it seems to happen rather a lot.
 
Again, this is a win win, because when the inevitable dining out night comes along and you go from being a 'silver back' to being just another civvy, you'll be able to cross-deck to civpol seamlessly, because you're already a constable.
Fuxake, I had to put up with them as a captive audience for nearly 25 years, I certainly wouldn't want monkey ethics and customs to infect the civilian police, they're quite hard enough work to deal with as they are.
 
Directly, it wouldn't, but it would re-brand the firm (RMP) withing the community (Soldiers). That community start to see you as real police officers instead of fookin 'orrible monkeys.

It can't just be a name change for the sake of changing the name though. If Constables in the new and improved RMP Constabulary are to be taken seriously by their community and other constabularies, then they need to up their game and train to HO standards.

Again, this is a win win, because when the inevitable dining out night comes along and you go from being a 'silver back' to being just another civvy, you'll be able to cross-deck to civpol seamlessly, because you're already a constable.
I think you miss the point here.. "The Community" is not "The Soldiers"! The Community is "The Army!

Other communities are irrelevant.. and the HO should have nothing to do with the issue!

The purpose of the Army is to defend the realm, not act as a training ground for future careers!
 
I really wasn't going to do this, but I shall relate my three personal experiences of dealing with the RMP. I don't hate them, but I have no regard for them whatsoever.

The first was during basic training in Catterick. A week before passing off, just after we returned from the end of course final field ex, the DS took us all out to a pub and we all duly got leathered, as you do. The next morning, Saturday, one of the guys from our troop, who had obviously recovered quicker than the rest of us, came into our four man room and woke us up. In his hand he had our four wallets which he had found in the washroom when he had been in there earlier. Needless to say, all the cash was gone.

The guys in the guardroom (ROS I seem to remember) took the incident details and then had the duty driver take us down to the monkey shop in camp centre. They again took the details and took us back to camp, where they proceeded to search all our lockers and personal possessions. Clearly those that had been robbed were the main suspects. At one point one of them even complained that we had dirty kit in our laundry bags, which was not a mega surprise as we had just returned from ex. They turned over everything, absolutely everything, even unrolling our socks etc. and found nothing. Anyway, word got round like wildfire, and that afternoon one of the blokes from the holding troop, Blair IIRC, came back from Darlington with hands full of shopping bags, being suddenly flush with cash. Everybody reckoned it was him, maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. We duly reported our suspicions to the monkeys who basically said that there was no proof and therefore they weren't going to do anything. No fingerprints taken from the wallets or the room, just tough luck sucker!

The next incident was in JHQ. I was with a small detachment supporting 3 US Corps on REFORGER, in the small block opposite the fire station, and we were sleeping in one of the transit blocks up near the bowling alley. As the duty tech, I had a phone installed in our room so that in the event we were needed they could call us/me out. Corps level liaison comms being considered important and all that. To make this call out procedure efficient our 3/4 ton LR was parked outside the block so we could be there in minutes if required. Anyway, about three days in I was woken up at about 3 in the morning by a monkey full screw kicking my bed. Having established that i was the owner of said softskin landrover, I had to accompany him to the cop shop to make a statement. What could be the problem I wondered. Had it been damaged? Stolen? Reported for an offence? No. Apparently I had acted negligently in not locking the doors of this softskin landrover and had to be interviewed with a view to being charged for gross negligence. I was interviewed, made a statement and released with the order to report back in the morning. When I got there they told me I had been reported to my unit, 22SR, and they would decide what happened next, but from now on I had to park the rover half a mile away in the locked 60 Sqn(?) MT compound where I wouldn't be able to get to it outside working hours. What a great f'in plan! Back at the det, I was told to ring the Ops O back in Lippstadt. So I did, full of trepidation, and he told me that the monkeys were just being throbbers and the Adjt and CO had completely disregarded their report and binned it. Nonetheless, the rover had to stay in the compound and if called out I would just have to walk the 3/4 mile to the ex location. As it was we arranged with the spams that if I was called out they would come and pick me up, which they did several times during the three weeks...good lads.

The third one was again in Catterick, during my Staffies' course. Due to all the kit needed, it was normal for people to drive over from Germany in their own cars. One Sunday evening I was returning to camp after visiting my parents in Manchester when I got pulled over by the plastic rozzers. Why am I driving a BFG car in UK? Obviously, on a course etc. He wanted to see all the docs, no problem, then I had to accompany them to the cop shop. I showed the desk Sgt all my docs and he then phoned the duty bod in Hohne to confirm that I was in fact a member of that unit. Of course I was, but they were mega disappointed that they couldn't get me for anything. Again...F'in throbbers.

This type of behaviour does not engender respect and confidence in a corps that is already held in low regard by most people in the army.
Unfortunately the safest thing you could nick was cash. The Army didn't offer forensic backing for petty theft. I covered some quite serious cash thefts and there was no forensic backing. Likewise for a lot of material items. Many crimes were written off by superiors if they thought there was no chance of a conviction. Even when you were pretty sure who had done it. I would have at least had a word with your mystery shopper but if he kept stum nothing would have happened. By the stage he appeared it had probably already been written off and NFA to be taken. This I felt caused many loses of confidence in the RMP.

The LR incident, the RMP was overzealous and pushing regs to the limit. He could have just informed you to keep the LR secure, yes I know its a soft top but regs don't always make sense. He obviously caused a lot of unnecessary paperwork and shit.

The BFG incident they were being dicks.

By the way get burgled today and see what the civvy police response is.

RMP wasn't perfect. People expected it to be. Like I said above there were knobbers but there were also some good people with the right attitude. Ive seen plenty of shit state performance and knobbers in other units. Ive been thanked by Officers and SNCOs in other units for the way I dealt with stuff and their knobbers. Ive been approached by SNCOs and asked to noise their lads up a bit.
The Army is full of regulations honestly if I had spent my time on shift enforcing every infringement I wouldn't have been able to move for paperwork.

How many people love Civvy Police, Ive had some bad experiences but they are a necessary evil.
 
If it's outsourced you'll not get CivPol you'll get G4S with warrant cards.
You may be right but I believe you have taken the word 'outsourced' out of the context of my post. Let's change 'outsourced' for 'defence policing outwith the chain of command'.
 
I think generally Police get into trouble when, for a number of reasons, leadership and supervision is lacking. I suspect this is the same issue, whether civil or military. If you do not keep juniors on a very short leash, the temptation to engage boot before brain is almost axiomatic. Over the years, the time available to seniors for keeping tabs on what the kids are up to has diminished. These days, anyone over the rank of Sergeant seems to spend the vast majority of their lives sitting behind a screen processing trivia.

If you allow the attitudes of the playground and street enter the psyche, you have a devil of a job to get it out. Situations where front line performance has failed, the "lesson learned" has been "more training" and "more restrictive process driven action" instead of what should have been done, which was to get more of the seniors out on the streets to show how things should be done..

I think the RMP has probably the most challenging of all of the service police jobs.. They are trying to supervise a large population of individuals, spread over large geographical areas with a naturally belligerent and tribal mindset. The way in which RMP detachments are manned creates a very thin red/blue line, and in many cases very junior soldiers have to deal with complex and volatile issues with minimal oversight. There is also the reality that the chain of command within units is often as much to blame as the perps, and are much more difficult to deal with. Too often the views of the PM is trumped by COs (particularly if of a "grand" regiment) or CoS. Whilst neither should have powers of veto, there is much mutual respect missing from such relationships IMHO.

RMP should not be the main agency for dealing with petty crime, and the current trend of the chain of command to distance themselves from these issues is, I think, much of the problem. Again this is an unintended consequence of stripping authority from the chain of command. We sometimes lose the point of having a chain of command, which is to lead and control their soldiers. Too often the attitude these days is that soldiering is a 9-5 job, to stay away from the messy "uman issues" and point folk in the general direction of a JPA terminal. RMP should not become involved in regimental discipline in much the same way as Civpol should stay out of schools...!

RMP is there as an independent agency for the investigation of serious crime, and should be used as such.. There is no requirement for the RMP to be liked.. but they must be respected. In too many instances of late, the RMP have been misused and have lost respect as a consequence. Policing must be done with the consent of the society being policed; it is a very serious situation if this principle is lost on either party.
Then, when we moved out of the 1960's......:rolleyes:=-D

Most of that is very 'pre-pace'. The key to good day to day policing lays in the individuals relationship with those that they are policing. That's because policing is intelligence led and this has a direct impact on the prevention of crime and when crime and disorder does occur, in the identification and arrest of offenders. HO forces have lost some of that ability of late because they have lost the traditional beat copper which was nearly always a super-keen probationer and those that they do have seem to be glued to the insides of their cars whilst attempting police over 60,000,000 people and there's nowhere near enough PCs to do that. For those reasons, it must be intelligence led and targeted.

You're right that police are not there to be liked, and there are some in every society that will go out of their way to hate you, even kill you. That's the nature of policing. However, the fact that being liked isn't on the orbat, doesn't mean that it's banned.
 
Out of interest, if a HO constable applied to join RMP, would they be fast-tracked for promotion or eligible for commission or anything, or would it be a 'start again muppet' moment?
 
Last edited:
Then, when we moved out of the 1960's......:rolleyes:=-D

Most of that is very 'pre-pace'. The key to good day to day policing lays in the individuals relationship with those that they are policing. That's because policing is intelligence led and this has a direct impact on the prevention of crime and when crime and disorder does occur, in the identification and arrest of offenders. HO forces have lost some of that ability of late because they have lost the traditional beat copper which was nearly always a super-keen probationer and those that they do have seem to be glued to the insides of their cars whilst attempting police over 60,000,000 people and there's nowhere near enough PCs to do that. For those reasons, it must be intelligence led and targeted.

You're right that police are not there to be liked, and there are some in every society that will go out of their way to hate you, even kill you. That's the nature of policing. However, the fact that being liked isn't on the orbat, doe't mean that it's banned.
Well.. I think I am working from first principals rather than pre/post PACE. Break the basic principals of the need for adequate, competent and effective supervision, and behaviour will spiral off into lala land!

Yes I know the principals of Intelligence led activity however can I suggest that even when this is done, much of Police activity is still encounter driven! In both scenarios, the need to apply judgement and experience cannot, despite the latest theories to come out of Hendon and Tulliallan be replaced by system based theory typified by legislation such as PACE. Never forget that a plan seldom survives first contact with the enemy..

"Intelligence" at the end of the day is simply a refined form of "Guessing"! We need people in the military who can apply skill and judgement to a developing situation rather than follow blind dogma..!

...but we digress! RMP needs fixing rather than replacing, as I contend that what it does is, and always has been, a core element of military activitiy..
 
I don't know but why the **** would you? ;)
I know...it would be an act of insanity, but hypothetically I just wonder how that would be received.

I'm trying to think that it would go well, but I know in my own profession, that those that sign on (another act of insanity if you ask me), they tend to fall foul of the RAMC S/NCOs that feel more than a tad threatened by it all.

Wonder if the same would happen in policing?
 
Out of interest, if a HO constable applied to join RMP, would they be fast-tracked for promotion or eligible for commission or anything, or would it be a 'start again muppet' moment?
First of all, he or she would need to undergo psychological evaluation for electing voluntarily to take a massive cut in salary.
 
I think you miss the point here.. "The Community" is not "The Soldiers"! The Community is "The Army!

Other communities are irrelevant.. and the HO should have nothing to do with the issue!

The purpose of the Army is to defend the realm, not act as a training ground for future careers!
The Army (armed forces / MOD) is the employer. The community are the employees surely.

I don't believe that other communities are irrelevant because we cross over with eachother and inter-mingle.

As for acting as a training ground for future careers? For as long as I can remember, the army has enticed applications on the basis of professional qualifications that may not be as easy to achieve in civvy st. Furthermore, most soldiers have done their 22 years at 40 years old. That potentially leaves another 28 years before state pension age, so professional training and continuation of that profession when you leave the mob, is I suggest, massively important.

There are also ways of protecting that investment. Many companies in civvy st, offer significant training opportunities. That person can't then leave within a given time period without incurring hefty financial penalties. Much like PVR I suppose.
 
First of all, he or she would need to undergo psychological evaluation for electing voluntarily to take a massive cut in salary.[/QUOTE
I realised that as I was asking the question. But that itself begs another idea.

If as I suggest, RMP Constables were trained to HO police standards, should their pay be reflective of that? Again, there are professions in the military, that are already pacing the same jobs in civvy st, so why not policing?

Then, you may get HO PCs opting for a military constabulary in preference to a civvy one.

Thinking about it, some professions are better paid in the military than in their civvy equivalent.
 
I think generally Police get into trouble when, for a number of reasons, leadership and supervision is lacking. I suspect this is the same issue, whether civil or military. If you do not keep juniors on a very short leash, the temptation to engage boot before brain is almost axiomatic. Over the years, the time available to seniors for keeping tabs on what the kids are up to has diminished. These days, anyone over the rank of Sergeant seems to spend the vast majority of their lives sitting behind a screen processing trivia.

If you allow the attitudes of the playground and street enter the psyche, you have a devil of a job to get it out. Situations where front line performance has failed, the "lesson learned" has been "more training" and "more restrictive process driven action" instead of what should have been done, which was to get more of the seniors out on the streets to show how things should be done..

I think the RMP has probably the most challenging of all of the service police jobs.. They are trying to supervise a large population of individuals, spread over large geographical areas with a naturally belligerent and tribal mindset. The way in which RMP detachments are manned creates a very thin red/blue line, and in many cases very junior soldiers have to deal with complex and volatile issues with minimal oversight. There is also the reality that the chain of command within units is often as much to blame as the perps, and are much more difficult to deal with. Too often the views of the PM is trumped by COs (particularly if of a "grand" regiment) or CoS. Whilst neither should have powers of veto, there is much mutual respect missing from such relationships IMHO.

RMP should not be the main agency for dealing with petty crime, and the current trend of the chain of command to distance themselves from these issues is, I think, much of the problem. Again this is an unintended consequence of stripping authority from the chain of command. We sometimes lose the point of having a chain of command, which is to lead and control their soldiers. Too often the attitude these days is that soldiering is a 9-5 job, to stay away from the messy "uman issues" and point folk in the general direction of a JPA terminal. RMP should not become involved in regimental discipline in much the same way as Civpol should stay out of schools...!

RMP is there as an independent agency for the investigation of serious crime, and should be used as such.. There is no requirement for the RMP to be liked.. but they must be respected. In too many instances of late, the RMP have been misused and have lost respect as a consequence. Policing must be done with the consent of the society being policed; it is a very serious situation if this principle is lost on either party.
It was a Sergeant who tried to stitch me up. It may have been a long time ago but the shock at realising that these people, who were there to uphold the law, were no better than all the other lying scumbags they were supposed to deal with still rankles.
To add insult to injury, this Sgt also had himself locked in a cell, alone, with me as he had decided that I was the one "that was going to make his day"
This idea was quickly abandoned just as soon as he realised that, in all probability, this was not going to end well for him.
It took the intervention of a Guard Commander who had the moral (and in this instance p
 
physical courage to tell Sgt 'Grimm' that he wouldn't be going along with his fairy tale.
This could not have been a 'one off' This ************** had previous. Blind eyes were turned and the waggons circled when accusations were levelled at one of their own.

If you're reading this Sgt 'Grimm', best not to pm me.
 
I realised that as I was asking the question. But that itself begs another idea.

If as I suggest, RMP Constables were trained to HO police standards, should their pay be reflective of that? Again, there are professions in the military, that are already pacing the same jobs in civvy st, so why not policing?

Then, you may get HO PCs opting for a military constabulary in preference to a civvy one.

Thinking about it, some professions are better paid in the military than in their civvy equivalent.
The two roles are not interchangeable and although there may be commonalities, there is no real parallel in either the job description, the modus operandi, the command structure, the career structure, the powers, responsibilities or the ethos.

They just both happen to have the word police in the job title.
 
If you're reading this Sgt 'Grimm', best not to pm me.
Why not; what will you do?

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
 
The two roles are not interchangeable and although there may be commonalities, there is no real parallel in either the job description, the modus operandi, the command structure, the career structure, the powers, responsibilities or the ethos.

They just both happen to have the word police in the job title.
If that's the case, then maybe the word police should be replaced with something a tad more military then...Provost maybe, so Royal Military Provost Corp as opposed to my other suggestion of Royal Military Police Constabulary...at least then there'd be no confusion between the office and appointment of a police officer and that of the RMP.
 

Similar threads

Top