Army abuse trial collapses

I sincerely hope things have changed in the SIB,I only ever had dealings with a WO2 sent up from GHQ Tanglin the first week in december 1965, to gather information and evidence about the murder of sapper Jim Box(Killed on 29/11/1965).As I was with jim when he got shot , and the only english witness,I was confined to the mess until his holiness the sib fella deigned to interview me,he disappeared to Ubon to liaise with the thai police, a pity really because I had already made statements and visited the crime scene with thai police from Mukdaharn, my statements and evidence were verified by the villagers, the sib fella returned from ubon on the thursday , having spent a 5 days investigating the sgts mess on the aussiebase and interviewing numerous bargirls and prostitutes,the only time we spoke was on the friday morning flight from ubon to singapore , At the court of inquiry,he stated that the ubon police were hot on the trail of the 2 gunmen, wasa real pity because the Mukdaharn police had taken the 2 gunmen into custody on the 2nd of december, as the camp interpreter for op crown it was also my job to translate the statement from the thai police and procecution,there were quitte a few red faces,and 2 hours later Iwas put on a train toBKK, a 3 day journey by the way,On the 2nd of may1966 I witnessed the execution of the 2 gunmen , The Sib fella went on to be one of the stars of the Met:rmp::rmp:
Mate, did you learn if the Mukdahan RTP discovered the motivation for Spr Box's murder?
 
We need to ensure all the bits of our military works.. even the bits we don't like!
I'll therefore restate that in 30years of service I never once had a professionally satisfactory encounter with RMP, and observe that the Police element of their training would seem to be almost cursory by comparison with a proper copper's.

Almost as if the Army didn't really care.
 
the shootig was a case of mistaken identitity,, the culprit they were looking for had already been rtu,d to singapore
 
I'll therefore restate that in 30years of service I never once had a professionally satisfactory encounter with RMP, and observe that the Police element of their training would seem to be almost cursory by comparison with a proper copper's.

Almost as if the Army didn't really care.
My police training was very in-depth, you had to study seriously to pass the police training exams, you continue to learn police acts and procedures once you get to your new unit for progression to corporal exams, same again on your way to sergeant. Speaking to civpol officers with the same amount of time served, none of them could quote offence definitions or points to prove without referring to a book. My training was so intense police wise, I can still remember my offence definitions 32 years after my training and I haven't used them in 25 years.
 
I'll therefore restate that in 30years of service I never once had a professionally satisfactory encounter with RMP, and observe that the Police element of their training would seem to be almost cursory by comparison with a proper copper's.

Almost as if the Army didn't really care.
I cant quote on your experiences but in the early 90s RMP training was virtually completely Police orientated, it severely lacked in Military skills. Many efforts were being made by the Army to improve "Policing" and bring it in line with Civvy methods and law. Even in GPD if you made any sort of procedural mistake it was harshly addressed by superiors.
I didn't particularly enjoy being a RMP I had served before in something else that I couldn't continue in, I didn't like petty discipline, I thought the training turned out a lot of 18 year old wanna a be coppers. However in units I found a balance, yes there were people who seemed to enjoy screaming at pissed squaddies and stopping people for not traversing mini roundabouts properly but there were also a lot of dedicated people who took the role very seriously and were professional.
I worked quite a bit with Civvy Police and found exactly the same thing among them.
I think however the RMP was over tasked it had too many diverse responsibilities, working hours were ridiculous and time off non existent for long periods, even taking leave was difficult and mostly lost. And that was working in Garrison there were no Sports afternoons or POETS. Morale was often poor and many left. I wasn't impressed with the hierarchy many were gutless and everybody was concerned with getting procedure wrong and being punished for it at all levels.
Policing is unpopular, Policemen are unpopular Ive met many servicemen who hate the RMP but who ever never had any real encounter with them.
Believe me you don't want all crimes in the Military dealt with by Civil Police.
Yes I saw instances of unprofessional behaviour by RMP I saw much more professional behaviour. Ive also seen unprofessional and poor behaviour by all ranks non and commissioned in other branches of the Military.
 
That has the makings of a sensible proposal.

I'd like to see it made more robust, by serious selection processes, to weed out those looking for a cushy line of work with accelerated promotion (SASC-stylee). Especially for Officers.

I'd also want to be sure that RMP were properly trained to go coppering.

6 months of army-run training, doesn't compare to what CIVPOL have to undergo.

(Snipped for brevity)
I take your point, but comparing Service Police training with HO police training is comparing apples with oranges. Like I said above the overwhelming majority of investigations are carried out satisfactorily as 'business as usual'. However, where the RMP suffers reputationally is as a result of two main factors:

1. Historical myth masquerading as historical fact completely unencumbered by any evidence whatsoever ('battle police' - whatever they were - summarily executing the plucky British Tommy if he refused to go over the top). Nothing can be done about that apart from to recognise that these myths are total bollocks.

2. The personal characteristics of some of those recruited into the RMP. A lot of them are very immature and get awarded a stripe after completion of Phase Two training. They have no experience of wider Army life and no idea how to talk to 'senior' soldiers in other branches of the Army - therefore they have no credibility. Combine these two together and that contributes to a bad impression. This could be rectified by making the RMP VT-only, leading to NCOs who have wider experience of Army life and can deal with servicemen accordingly. It could lead to an incident being defused before someone is put in a position of having to arrest another; after all, prevention of crime is not just about advising people to secure their lockers whenever they leave the block!!

In terms of training, I completed six months at Chichester in 1989, broken down as follows:

Common Military Syllabus (R) - first ten weeks
Special-to-Arm Training - four weeks (LMG, signals, Provost Operations (route recce, route signing, route maintenance, traffic control, harbour areas, etc): show me a civvy copper that does all that!!
Police Duties - the remainder (rules of evidence, statement taking, interviewing suspects, report writing, RTA procedures, preserving a crime scene, investigating theft, assault, criminal damage, etc)
Driver Training

The next few years were very much work-based training interspersed with attendance on training courses in order to upgrade.

On posting to a Pro Coy all tasks were directly supervised by a tutor Cpl and after 18 months a two-week Provost Ops upgrading course was completed followed by a more in-depth investigations course about two years after that. The next course after that was the RMP Section Commanders course: Provost Ops-based and mandatory for promotion to Sgt along with CLM.

Individuals who wish to move into the SIB apply to do so. They have to have been recommended for promotion to Sgt and also pass the both the SIB Investigators and RMP Section Commander courses, which is intense! Once in the SIB, investigators can specialise in such areas as SOCO, sexual offences, child protection, drugs, etc).

There used to be other niche jobs available such as CP, Close Observation Teams, Drugs Intelligence Teams, Criminal Intelligence (and in NI, Continuity NCOs, Recognition Information Section and Weapons Intelligence Section).

Yes, I agree that individuals can let themselves down (and by extension the RMP) both personally and professionally but in the overall context of things these instances are small and I think the training approach was sufficient. At no point in my policing career - before I moved into RMP signals - did I feel under trained in terms of either policing or Provost Ops.

Apologies for the wordy post and not seeking to defend any mistakes at all but just trying to add a bit of context about things.
 
My police training was very in-depth, you had to study seriously to pass the police training exams, you continue to learn police acts and procedures once you get to your new unit for progression to corporal exams, same again on your way to sergeant. Speaking to civpol officers with the same amount of time served, none of them could quote offence definitions or points to prove without referring to a book. My training was so intense police wise, I can still remember my offence definitions 32 years after my training and I haven't used them in 25 years.
The opposite in my experience. I joined in 84 and it was about rote learning of definitions but not really digging into the technicality of police procedure. Policing has only become more and more complex. I cannot comment on RMP training in the last 10 years but suspect that due to the op tempo, soldiering has by necessity taken a priority.

CivPol trg is purely police oriented and for the first 2 years revolves around obtaining a NVQ 4 or a Diploma. This requires repetitively doing critical police skills to a monitored and acceptable standard, so they become ingrained. Something that I never saw in RMP. Obviously the soldiering skills do not have to be learnt but after 2 years of probation, more policing skills such as driving, Public Order, CBRN, MOE and other investigative skills are introduced.

Any promotion relies on passing a National standard 150 multiple choice exam. This is testing and requires a minimum of 3 months in depth study on all aspects of Policing. When I heard it was multi choice, I thought how hard can it be, it is hard with many failing. A similar exam exists just to be allowed onto the CID process as a trainee.

The shear diversity of offences committed in civvy street means that an officer cannot know every definition. That is why we have PNLD on our IT Systems an officers privately purchase Blackstone reference books which cost £27 a time.
 
I'll therefore restate that in 30years of service I never once had a professionally satisfactory encounter with RMP, and observe that the Police element of their training would seem to be almost cursory by comparison with a proper copper's.

Almost as if the Army didn't really care.
That may be true.. but it doesn't make it right!

As you may imagine I had quite a lot of dealings with RMP over the years.. In the specialist areas I was working the RMP were pretty good (Pointer etc..) and in the investigation of weapon associated incidents they seemed reasonably sensible, although I was seeing it from the other side. The main issue seemed to be (IMHO) a lack of leadership and an officer corps who were not taken that seriously by the rest of the system. As in many areas, the influence of the LE has been allowed to reign, which whilst often effective in the short term, has not led to sensible long term decisions. Officers have been allowed (or persuaded) not to become involved in the operational/technical parts of the process and have been pushed in the direction of "regimental greasy pole activities" to get promoted. This is IMHO fundamentally wrong. The role of the Provost Marshall is a vital one, and needs to be supported and nurtured. It is not some sub function of the G1/MS role.

This is not a problem that is unique to the G1/AG empire.. The same has happened on the G4/Loggie world where even the specialist capbadges have been subsumed into the Borg..
 
My police training was very in-depth, you had to study seriously to pass the police training exams, you continue to learn police acts and procedures once you get to your new unit for progression to corporal exams, same again on your way to sergeant. Speaking to civpol officers with the same amount of time served, none of them could quote offence definitions or points to prove without referring to a book. My training was so intense police wise, I can still remember my offence definitions 32 years after my training and I haven't used them in 25 years.
Takes a deep breath:

"A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and 'thief' and 'steal' shall be construed accordingly. It is immaterial whether the appropriation is made with a view to gain or for the thief's own benefit."

Get in my son!!! :)

There's a few others still in there too!!
 
Takes a deep breath:

"A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and 'thief' and 'steal' shall be construed accordingly. It is immaterial whether the appropriation is made with a view to gain or for the thief's own benefit."

Get in my son!!! :)

There's a few others still in there too!!
The problem with that is you can probably only regurgitate 5 or so definitions. With The Fraud Act and The Sexual Offences Act, RIPA, CPIA etc it would be totally impractical nowadays to expect police officers to rote learn volumes of law.
 
Takes a deep breath:

"A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and 'thief' and 'steal' shall be construed accordingly. It is immaterial whether the appropriation is made with a view to gain or for the thief's own benefit."

Get in my son!!! :)

There's a few others still in there too!!
Can you dig into it and explain R v Ghosh 1982. The case law that defines dishonesty?

It’s about depth of knowledge, constant use of the legislation and not superficial rote learning.
 
RMP SNCOs used to be warranted as police officers and attached to RUC CID etc where they dealt with ordinary crime as well as terrorist offences. Would not a system like that improve SIB investigation abilities - reading through the thread it seems to me that it's the experience side of things that's lacking not the classroom knowledge?
 
Can you dig into it and explain R v Ghosh 1982. The case law that defines dishonesty?

It’s about depth of knowledge, constant use of the legislation and not superficial rote learning.
No, I can't though I do remember the name. When I went off into the sigs world I forgot all the depth of knowledge police stuff because I didn't need it but needed to know sigs-related stuff instead for my day job. Just bizarre that I can remember the definitions after all these years of not thinking about them; mind you I can still remember weapon handling drills for SLR, LMG, SMG, SA80 and Browning 9mm pistol!!
 
Policing is unpopular, Policemen are unpopular Ive met many servicemen who hate the RMP but who ever never had any real encounter with them.
I really wasn't going to do this, but I shall relate my three personal experiences of dealing with the RMP. I don't hate them, but I have no regard for them whatsoever.

The first was during basic training in Catterick. A week before passing off, just after we returned from the end of course final field ex, the DS took us all out to a pub and we all duly got leathered, as you do. The next morning, Saturday, one of the guys from our troop, who had obviously recovered quicker than the rest of us, came into our four man room and woke us up. In his hand he had our four wallets which he had found in the washroom when he had been in there earlier. Needless to say, all the cash was gone.

The guys in the guardroom (ROS I seem to remember) took the incident details and then had the duty driver take us down to the monkey shop in camp centre. They again took the details and took us back to camp, where they proceeded to search all our lockers and personal possessions. Clearly those that had been robbed were the main suspects. At one point one of them even complained that we had dirty kit in our laundry bags, which was not a mega surprise as we had just returned from ex. They turned over everything, absolutely everything, even unrolling our socks etc. and found nothing. Anyway, word got round like wildfire, and that afternoon one of the blokes from the holding troop, Blair IIRC, came back from Darlington with hands full of shopping bags, being suddenly flush with cash. Everybody reckoned it was him, maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. We duly reported our suspicions to the monkeys who basically said that there was no proof and therefore they weren't going to do anything. No fingerprints taken from the wallets or the room, just tough luck sucker!

The next incident was in JHQ. I was with a small detachment supporting 3 US Corps on REFORGER, in the small block opposite the fire station, and we were sleeping in one of the transit blocks up near the bowling alley. As the duty tech, I had a phone installed in our room so that in the event we were needed they could call us/me out. Corps level liaison comms being considered important and all that. To make this call out procedure efficient our 3/4 ton LR was parked outside the block so we could be there in minutes if required. Anyway, about three days in I was woken up at about 3 in the morning by a monkey full screw kicking my bed. Having established that i was the owner of said softskin landrover, I had to accompany him to the cop shop to make a statement. What could be the problem I wondered. Had it been damaged? Stolen? Reported for an offence? No. Apparently I had acted negligently in not locking the doors of this softskin landrover and had to be interviewed with a view to being charged for gross negligence. I was interviewed, made a statement and released with the order to report back in the morning. When I got there they told me I had been reported to my unit, 22SR, and they would decide what happened next, but from now on I had to park the rover half a mile away in the locked 60 Sqn(?) MT compound where I wouldn't be able to get to it outside working hours. What a great f'in plan! Back at the det, I was told to ring the Ops O back in Lippstadt. So I did, full of trepidation, and he told me that the monkeys were just being throbbers and the Adjt and CO had completely disregarded their report and binned it. Nonetheless, the rover had to stay in the compound and if called out I would just have to walk the 3/4 mile to the ex location. As it was we arranged with the spams that if I was called out they would come and pick me up, which they did several times during the three weeks...good lads.

The third one was again in Catterick, during my Staffies' course. Due to all the kit needed, it was normal for people to drive over from Germany in their own cars. One Sunday evening I was returning to camp after visiting my parents in Manchester when I got pulled over by the plastic rozzers. Why am I driving a BFG car in UK? Obviously, on a course etc. He wanted to see all the docs, no problem, then I had to accompany them to the cop shop. I showed the desk Sgt all my docs and he then phoned the duty bod in Hohne to confirm that I was in fact a member of that unit. Of course I was, but they were mega disappointed that they couldn't get me for anything. Again...F'in throbbers.

This type of behaviour does not engender respect and confidence in a corps that is already held in low regard by most people in the army.
 
I really wasn't going to do this, but I shall relate my three personal experiences of dealing with the RMP. I don't hate them, but I have no regard for them whatsoever.

The first was during basic training in Catterick. A week before passing off, just after we returned from the end of course final field ex, the DS took us all out to a pub and we all duly got leathered, as you do. The next morning, Saturday, one of the guys from our troop, who had obviously recovered quicker than the rest of us, came into our four man room and woke us up. In his hand he had our four wallets which he had found in the washroom when he had been in there earlier. Needless to say, all the cash was gone.

The guys in the guardroom (ROS I seem to remember) took the incident details and then had the duty driver take us down to the monkey shop in camp centre. They again took the details and took us back to camp, where they proceeded to search all our lockers and personal possessions. Clearly those that had been robbed were the main suspects. At one point one of them even complained that we had dirty kit in our laundry bags, which was not a mega surprise as we had just returned from ex. They turned over everything, absolutely everything, even unrolling our socks etc. and found nothing. Anyway, word got round like wildfire, and that afternoon one of the blokes from the holding troop, Blair IIRC, came back from Darlington with hands full of shopping bags, being suddenly flush with cash. Everybody reckoned it was him, maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. We duly reported our suspicions to the monkeys who basically said that there was no proof and therefore they weren't going to do anything. No fingerprints taken from the wallets or the room, just tough luck sucker!

The next incident was in JHQ. I was with a small detachment supporting 3 US Corps on REFORGER, in the small block opposite the fire station, and we were sleeping in one of the transit blocks up near the bowling alley. As the duty tech, I had a phone installed in our room so that in the event we were needed they could call us/me out. Corps level liaison comms being considered important and all that. To make this call out procedure efficient our 3/4 ton LR was parked outside the block so we could be there in minutes if required. Anyway, about three days in I was woken up at about 3 in the morning by a monkey full screw kicking my bed. Having established that i was the owner of said softskin landrover, I had to accompany him to the cop shop to make a statement. What could be the problem I wondered. Had it been damaged? Stolen? Reported for an offence? No. Apparently I had acted negligently in not locking the doors of this softskin landrover and had to be interviewed with a view to being charged for gross negligence. I was interviewed, made a statement and released with the order to report back in the morning. When I got there they told me I had been reported to my unit, 22SR, and they would decide what happened next, but from now on I had to park the rover half a mile away in the locked 60 Sqn(?) MT compound where I wouldn't be able to get to it outside working hours. What a great f'in plan! Back at the det, I was told to ring the Ops O back in Lippstadt. So I did, full of trepidation, and he told me that the monkeys were just being throbbers and the Adjt and CO had completely disregarded their report and binned it. Nonetheless, the rover had to stay in the compound and if called out I would just have to walk the 3/4 mile to the ex location. As it was we arranged with the spams that if I was called out they would come and pick me up, which they did several times during the three weeks...good lads.

The third one was again in Catterick, during my Staffies' course. Due to all the kit needed, it was normal for people to drive over from Germany in their own cars. One Sunday evening I was returning to camp after visiting my parents in Manchester when I got pulled over by the plastic rozzers. Why am I driving a BFG car in UK? Obviously, on a course etc. He wanted to see all the docs, no problem, then I had to accompany them to the cop shop. I showed the desk Sgt all my docs and he then phoned the duty bod in Hohne to confirm that I was in fact a member of that unit. Of course I was, but they were mega disappointed that they couldn't get me for anything. Again...F'in throbbers.

This type of behaviour does not engender respect and confidence in a corps that is already held in low regard by most people in the army.
I wasn't trying to start a ruck with my comments,just saying how I saw it.
The above post has proved a lot of other arrsers points.
And I would say that I don't personally hate the monkeys,but I have absolutely no respect for them,just like lots of other soldiers.
 
My police training was very in-depth, you had to study seriously to pass the police training exams, you continue to learn police acts and procedures once you get to your new unit for progression to corporal exams, same again on your way to sergeant. Speaking to civpol officers with the same amount of time served, none of them could quote offence definitions or points to prove without referring to a book. My training was so intense police wise, I can still remember my offence definitions 32 years after my training and I haven't used them in 25 years.
It's only relatively recently that civpol recruits haven't been required to learn definitions and acts and section verbatim. I was at Hendon in '89, and during my 22 weeks basic training, that was a significant part of our training and ongoing assessment process.

I also refer again to the fact that there were 2 ex-RMP in my intake of something like 180 recruits and they didn't do any better or worse than anyone else.

May I just say that despite my jolly jape anti-primate banter, I'm not having a pop at individuals here, more the training and system that those individuals have to work in. It's that system that I think is greatly flawed and that needs to be addressed.

I love the idea made by another c/s that RMP/military provost of whatever flavour, should not be a direct entry thing. However, I'd add a proviso to that and say that direct entry could be considered by HO police officers but they would be required to pass Ph1 and Ph2 infantry training then RMP specific continuation/familiarisation training before appointment....soldiers first an'all that.
 
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Maybe even police training managed by civilian police trainers seconded to the Service Police training college. ;)
Yep, why not. Sounds very sensible to me.

This has made me think about the title 'Police Officer'. Maybe there's a case to protect the title. I'm now a Paramedic and that title is protected in law, so unless one is on the state register which is administered by the Health and Care Professions Council, you cannot describe, claim or imply that you're a Paramedic. Maybe a standard of generic training and assessment should be introduced for everyone who carries the title of Police Officer. Once registered as a Police Officer, that individual can then work for whichever constabulary they want to, even as a Military Police Officer (MPO) within the Royal Military Police Constabulary (RMPC).....has a certain ring to it don't you think.

I also go back to my original point that if this sort of approach were to be adopted, a retiring monkey could then apply to move to a HO constabulary seamlessly, and apart from a bit of corporate induction which everyone and the dog has to do anyway, they could be out and about without having to go back through training school and probation.

So, if the provost marshal is reading this, it was my idea and yes, I would accept a knighthood for services to the development of simian integration
 

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