Army abuse trial collapses

While the idea of placing MoD police under the Home Office does have some apparent benefits, the major issue as far as I can see is it would just become a target of the bean counters who would see it as an easy way to cut costs, after all there is a response vehicle just down the road, why keep a separate force. It would not be long before Modpol were no more IMHO.
Which was the concern at LHR when The Met absorbed airport division. The BAAC PCs were not HO, and there was a concern that those PCs (known to Met PCs as plastics) would be farmed out to other divisions. In order to address this worry, the plastics got security of tenure so that they couldn't be moved elsewhere. Airport division (ID) was also somewhat immune to re-depoloyment and that was because of CAA regs which required a given amount of police for a given size of airport...it was to do with major incident planning and anti/counter terrorism, hence the shooty types.

So, if the HO followed that model whilst absorbing MDP, everything would be hunky doorey.
 
I've witnessed the RMP/SIB at work and it was always (from my point of view) individuals that let them down.
Examples include being taken from an interview as a vicitim by two RMP SNCO's. I was otherwise alone, it wasn't recorded and I was only out of faceial surgery an a couple of hours earlier. Everything was a bit 'wobbly'
My statement wasn't going the way they wanted as the bloke who punched me was known to be a bit punchy and they wanted a conviction. During this unrecorded 'chat' they threatened to lock me away for longer than him if they didn't hear what they wanted to hear. I suddenly had some memory problems and couldn't confirm what I'd previously told them. The lad was a cnut, but I wasn't going to lie put him away.

RMP Cpl drink riding (the gayest moped ever) and speeding on Op Chantress, then using a speed camera in Lobito port to tell people they were travelling 2mph too fast

A (lovely) female RMP in Cyprus (no I didn't, but it wasn't from lack of trying) signed off, she was fed up with the pre-patrol brief from the SNCO's being along the lines of 'They are all guilty, you just have to find out what. If you don't lift someone each shift you are not doing your job'.

During an interview where I was supposed to be the naughty person they did Bad cop/good cop. Only they got muddled up and at one point there were two good cops, then two bad cops, then two confused cops. They didn't even ask questions about what I had actually done*, thankfully they were asking about something I'd genuinely not been involved in

I got spammed to do the training for the auxillery RMP duties. The training by the RMP for us plastic pigs didn't improve our perception of the RMP.
Thankfully I didn't get to do the duty as I had been left with the unit list unattended and oddly my name was at the bottom (The RSM stopped using pencil written lists after that)

I do believe something needs to be done, but I have no idea what. the perception of what the RMP do, how they do it and why isn't good. Very few people trust them, some with good cause.
Thankfully things have changed, I'm making an assumption of timescale if your were an Auxiliary.
Unfortunately we do have our share of knobheads, but I like to think the vast majority cancel them out.
We're a cross section of society - would you say 100% of your cap badge are all excellent blokes?
The police in all its forms attracts weirdos and power mad *******, but we have a robust professional standards dept which provides quite the deterrence, and regardless of what people think, we are held to a higher standard than the rest of the Army.

We're never good at blowing our own trumpet, probably for political reasons. The MoD doesn't like to admit that soldiers commit crime, even heinous ones like Blackman (Marine A) wasn't publicised like a murder would've been in Civpol. As I said before we get good results every day of the week. The perception of the RMP from the 80s has changed. We no longer drive round in LR, dressed in No2s filling people in down town and stitching up the remainder.
 
Thankfully things have changed, I'm making an assumption of timescale if your were an Auxiliary.
Unfortunately we do have our share of knobheads, but I like to think the vast majority cancel them out.
We're a cross section of society - would you say 100% of your cap badge are all excellent blokes?
The police in all its forms attracts weirdos and power mad *******, but we have a robust professional standards dept which provides quite the deterrence, and regardless of what people think, we are held to a higher standard than the rest of the Army.

We're never good at blowing our own trumpet, probably for political reasons. The MoD doesn't like to admit that soldiers commit crime, even heinous ones like Blackman (Marine A) wasn't publicised like a murder would've been in Civpol. As I said before we get good results every day of the week. The perception of the RMP from the 80s has changed. We no longer drive round in LR, dressed in No2s filling people in down town and stitching up the remainder.
Oi! I'm from the 80s, I never did that! ;)
 
Some unsuitable types were weeded out before they ever got in.
As a Selection officer at Sutton Coldfield I interviewed a potential RMP. When asked how he would cope with the hard time in training he replied that he would take it as he'd be able to do the same to others as an RMP. I rejected him and so did the second interviewing officer!
 
In which case, perhaps the whole pipeline and system needs to be reformed then.

I know nothing of this case, but I was intimately involved with a number of SIB investigations on operations, at different points over what I presume was at least 3 SIB sections (correct terminology?). Sorry to report that they were, to various degrees, all, a complete and obvious bag of balls to even the casual and untrained eye. Failing to interview witnesses or to interview adequately was only one of several fuckups. I also saw them actively refuse to consider information, after we tried to get them a waiver to see a key piece of classified J2: their answer was that they didn't need to see it if it couldn't be admitted in court...even though it was clearly explained to them that the info was 100% reliable (it does happen!) and invalidated their case hypothesis. They generally gave the impression that they knew what had happened several minutes after arriving at a scene, and then spent the next few weeks slowly and rigorously proving themselves correct. In that case, even after being proven, with no room for doubt, wrong.

It was bad enough that the last time a formal complaint (e.g. summary of numerous mistakes seen and their impact on a major case) was requested by COS TFH from the other four stakeholders involved in an incident. It was unwritten after the FPM got involved among several of the "grown ups" with his Respec Mai Authoritai independent chain of command shtick.

Luckily in most of those cases there were enough others involved to identify and correct the errors. One result of the above was the SIB were forced to share investigative responsibility with others in Afghanistan. But that says nothing about the years of previous cases where the SIB have had untrammelled authority, nor about their behaviour in the UK.

No axe to grind here, I wasn't the target of any of these investigations, I was a separate investigator. But however it may have been done in your day, or should be done now, I'm afraid my experiences were such that I flat out don't trust the reliability any RMP investigation. Incompetence, unfortunately, was that ingrained across multiple different units and individuals.
I fully get where you are coming from - there are a few right throbbers and incompetents in the Feds! But having said that, other branches of the military aren't exactly throbber/incompetence-free zones either!! Please do not overlook the amount of solid investigations that are conducted quietly and in the background away from any publicity in that they are entirely un-newsworthy. Whether or not they resulted in a conviction is irrelevant so long as the investigation was carried out correctly and without 'fear or favour'. And don't forget that every single death on TELIC/HERRICK was investigated as unlawful killing with all the associated procedures regarding identification of the body, forensics and taking statements - not a nice job to do repeatedly day in/day out.

There's lots of hardworking investigators out there just getting on with the job. And for every one (not you) who froths that they were (or more likely know someone who was) allegedly 'fitted up by the Monkeys', I could probably show you a Defence brief who played a mediocre game in court.

I knew Captain Spanton when she was Cpl Spanton as we are of the same era and my recollection is of complete professionalism. Still struggling to see what went on in this particular circumstance though.

ETA: the decision to prosecute will have been well above her payscale.
 
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Some unsuitable types were weeded out before they ever got in.
As a Selection officer at Sutton Coldfield I interviewed a potential RMP. When asked how he would cope with the hard time in training he replied that he would take it as he'd be able to do the same to others as an RMP. I rejected him and so did the second interviewing officer!
Lot to be said for making RMP a Voluntary Transfer-only Corps like the RAPTC I think.
 
Thankfully things have changed, I'm making an assumption of timescale if your were an Auxiliary.
Unfortunately we do have our share of knobheads, but I like to think the vast majority cancel them out.
We're a cross section of society - would you say 100% of your cap badge are all excellent blokes?
The police in all its forms attracts weirdos and power mad *******, but we have a robust professional standards dept which provides quite the deterrence, and regardless of what people think, we are held to a higher standard than the rest of the Army.

We're never good at blowing our own trumpet, probably for political reasons. The MoD doesn't like to admit that soldiers commit crime, even heinous ones like Blackman (Marine A) wasn't publicised like a murder would've been in Civpol. As I said before we get good results every day of the week. The perception of the RMP from the 80s has changed. We no longer drive round in LR, dressed in No2s filling people in down town and stitching up the remainder.
Oi! I'm from the 80s, I never did that! ;)
Happy days!!

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Lot to be said for making RMP a Voluntary Transfer-only Corps like the RAPTC I think.
I used to think that when I joined, I wasn't VT but had served before the main problem I had with colleagues was that they had no real idea how the rest of the Army worked. However in the end I think that there were good and bad blokes whatever their background. In my day early 90's the RMP was definitely more policing orientated than soldiering, whilst investigating any crime even during GPD any mistakes in procedure were quickly picked up. I however felt especially in the UK that you were doing half a job their were so many restrictions and fears about ******* up and confidence was not high in being backed up by superiors. The money spent on MOD plod was a complete waste and probably still is, they were glorified gateguards and workshy yet receiving full HO Police pay and benefits. Many of them at the time refused the responsibility of being armed because they said it was not in their original contracts.
 
I was down in the Falklands with 9 Para RE - the animals! all they did was get pissed and cause fights, the poor RAFP had never seen such acts of wanton insubordination! :D
I had a mate in 9 PARA he was RTUd from Kenya for breaking into a Police Station when pissed looking for somewhere to get his head down. Once did a job in their lines at Browning. Heard a shout and looked out of the window Police Car was covered in something. As I did so I noticed that the putty in the window had been replaced/covered over with PE (Id used it in previous service) .
 
In my 15 years in, any and all experiences with the RMP/SB were less than stellar. Never have I come across more corrupt, lying, self serving bastards in all my life.
 
Thankfully things have changed, I'm making an assumption of timescale if your were an Auxiliary.
Unfortunately we do have our share of knobheads, but I like to think the vast majority cancel them out.
We're a cross section of society - would you say 100% of your cap badge are all excellent blokes?
The police in all its forms attracts weirdos and power mad *******, but we have a robust professional standards dept which provides quite the deterrence, and regardless of what people think, we are held to a higher standard than the rest of the Army.

We're never good at blowing our own trumpet, probably for political reasons. The MoD doesn't like to admit that soldiers commit crime, even heinous ones like Blackman (Marine A) wasn't publicised like a murder would've been in Civpol. As I said before we get good results every day of the week. The perception of the RMP from the 80s has changed. We no longer drive round in LR, dressed in No2s filling people in down town and stitching up the remainder.
I left in late 2013, The two SNCO's threatening me over my statement was early 90's, the expereince in Cyprus was from 1999-2001, the bad cop/good cop confusion was around 2004 ish, oh and the Monkey being a drunken dick was mid 90's .
I had the 'pleasure' of working in Rousillon Bks a few times- it was being run (at the time) exceptionally badly, it didn't give the recruits much chance in the first place.

I have never claimed my own cap badge was 100% knobber free, take a look at a couple of arrsers who claim to have ben RAMC for example Mr pants of fire and medic cop. However still being touch with serving soldiers the general opinion about the RMP is not any better than it was when I joined up.

If the knobbers are in the minority, then they are working really, really hard to make up for it.

I could list other occaions when individuals let the corps down, but that won't help. My point is individuals have historically made, and continue to make, the whole lot look bad and certainly during my time there was no sign of anything being done about it.
 
In my 15 years in, any and all experiences with the RMP/SB were less than stellar. Never have I come across more corrupt, lying, self serving bastards in all my life.
What had you done?
 
In my 15 years in, any and all experiences with the RMP/SB were less than stellar. Never have I come across more corrupt, lying, self serving bastards in all my life.
You were obviously never one of my patients then
 
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I'm scratching my head,all this talk of giving the blokes a lift,no questions asked. Never saw it once in my twelve years.Any one brought back to camp by our scarlet beret wearing friends went via the guardroom,and usually was on RSM's next day.
I myself,had a lift of local civpol a few times,(thank you Kent police and Wiltshire constabulary)and they were sound.
As I said earlier though,can only talk of my own experience.
Did it all the time - if they were well-behaved. On the grounds it would maybe keep them out of trouble.

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My first three years in green was spent in Detmold. (76-79) The RMP were all over us, I admit it could be a hard drinking, hard fighting environment when in town and the RMP were kept pretty busy, however, there was no need to lift lads when they were innocently walking back to barracks, dropping them off at the guardroom and reporting them for spurious offences which meant a night in clink and OC's orders the next morning. It happened every weekend and it was bollocks. (I was up twice and twice charges were binned, but it was a pain in the arrse and of course put me on the radar.)

Imagine my smiling face as I was told that my second posting was to 247 (Berlin) RMP. (FFS, I wasn't happy.)

As it turned out, I actually went to the very small LAD at Hemstedt and it was a cracking job, very Gucci and the lads and lasses were top notch and it changed my attitude completely, although it all went horribly wrong within a year and I was posted out and busted from lance jack, I was still treated well and thoroughly enjoyed my (short) time with them.
 
Lot to be said for making RMP a Voluntary Transfer-only Corps like the RAPTC I think.
That has the makings of a sensible proposal.

I'd like to see it made more robust, by serious selection processes, to weed out those looking for a cushy line of work with accelerated promotion (SASC-stylee). Especially for Officers.

I'd also want to be sure that RMP were properly trained to go coppering.

6 months of army-run training, doesn't compare to what CIVPOL have to undergo.

Overlay that with the minimal experience of of real crime in the military, and it's no chuffing wonder you get Mickey Mouse investigations like this.

Above all else - and like many others who've posted on this thread - I'd want to be certain that there is genuinely a need for the 21st Century military to have a Police function.

If there is - and I've not seen a convincing argument to that effect on this thread - I'd want competent people delivering it.

Think of this as a considered response from someone whose 30 years of service include several professional encounters with RMP, of various degrees of seriousness or triviality, in none of which do I recall the RMP NCOs involved acquitting themselves with anything remotely resembling competence, much less distinction.

That this case has come to light is no surprise to me.

That it has taken so long for such a case to see daylight is a disappointment.

I'm confident that it's not an isolated incident: it's just that the Army doesn't like to admit the possibility of dirty laundry, much less the airing of it in public
 
Ok Stonker.. I thought I had covered this in my previous post, but here goes. adjusting sensible hat..

The military is the agency of last resort. In other words, this must be the last element of society to fail and must be capable of independent survival regardless of context. Now I accept that this is not a role that gets much day to day consideration, and the military generally occupies its time being a tourist attraction or for political adventurism. but when you strip all of this away this is what it is there for!

The military can be threatened on many fronts, not only on the battlefield. As Clausewitz (and every junior officer since..) points out "Warfare is an extension of politics by other means" and military forces can usefully be attacked on political grounds as effectively as with bombs and bullets. Organised, loyal and effective armed forces are a threat to anyone who wishes to attack the establishment.

Since the times of the Glorious Revolution, the British system of handling its military has been to separate it from civil society. Servicemen, like Judges are not the playthings of Parliament. They have a direct line of loyalty to the Crown. The British have never had the need for political commissars or party armies such as Republican Guards or Storm Troopers. The military was subject to its own legal and penal codes, which always replicated, but extended the civil code. This guaranteed the separation of the military from legal interference and an ability to operate autonomously overseas.

If you have a separate penal code, then you also need to be able to impose it to at least the same level as in civil society. Which brings us to Policing.. You need to understand that the Police in England are a civil force, which (at the present time at least..) are subject to local oversight. We do not have a national Police force in UK. This is why we have Transport Police and MOD Police. This is the real reason we have Military Police.

You will have noticed that Scotland has just formed a National Police Force. This was a political move by the SNP which should have rung warning bells, but has seemingly passed without comment (yet!), National Police are a seriously dangerous idea, as even the most cursory glance at history will show...

I therefore contend that military forces need to be accountable but that they need to be essentially independent so that they can fulfil their ultimate role. To do this they must be capable of policing themselves. This can and should be done as effectively as any other function. If this is not happening at present, then it needs to be fixed. The argument that it should be "handed over to civil police" has as much validity as outsourcing artillery to DHL..

There has been a concerted effort to strip the military of its independence over the past forty years.. Loss of Crown Immunity, Imposition of H&S legislation, ECHR etc.. none of which HAD to be imposed (most countries did not as it happens...), and all of which has directly impinged on the effectiveness of the force. If you don't believe me, kindly explain the logic of the annual chanting of the Law of Armed Conflict...!

We need to ensure all the bits of our military works.. even the bits we don't like!
 
I sincerely hope things have changed in the SIB,I only ever had dealings with a WO2 sent up from GHQ Tanglin the first week in december 1965, to gather information and evidence about the murder of sapper Jim Box(Killed on 29/11/1965).As I was with jim when he got shot , and the only english witness,I was confined to the mess until his holiness the sib fella deigned to interview me,he disappeared to Ubon to liaise with the thai police, a pity really because I had already made statements and visited the crime scene with thai police from Mukdaharn, my statements and evidence were verified by the villagers, the sib fella returned from ubon on the thursday , having spent a 5 days investigating the sgts mess on the aussiebase and interviewing numerous bargirls and prostitutes,the only time we spoke was on the friday morning flight from ubon to singapore , At the court of inquiry,he stated that the ubon police were hot on the trail of the 2 gunmen, wasa real pity because the Mukdaharn police had taken the 2 gunmen into custody on the 2nd of december, as the camp interpreter for op crown it was also my job to translate the statement from the thai police and procecution,there were quitte a few red faces,and 2 hours later Iwas put on a train toBKK, a 3 day journey by the way,On the 2nd of may1966 I witnessed the execution of the 2 gunmen , The Sib fella went on to be one of the stars of the Met:rmp::rmp:
 

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