Army abuse trial collapses

The first problem is the army itself - do they know what they want, a policeman or a soldier? At the moment it is looking as though soldier is the dominant ethos.
They need a soldier that can enforce military discipline in environments where civpol can't access such as training areas and war zones. There's masses that they do well and they have the potential to re-structure into something really worthwhile. What they don't do well, is police, and that's because they're not police officers.

One of the issues I've got with my own suggestion, is one of recruitment and assessment. That's because, despite the somewhat gangly 12 year old that now seems to be in civpol (I'm getting very old), getting into the police is academically difficult and getting through the selection process is a lengthy nightmare. With the greatest respect, most RMP like most service personnel wouldn't pass that process. That's because they've been selected as soldiers not police officers.

On the plus side, those that did pass, could then move to civpol at the end of their service without the nause of having to go through training school and probation because they would in fact, already be warranted constables.
 

Auld-Yin

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Presumably then, you've also got a qualified health care professional in the guard room with you, who will confirm they're fit for detention, will oversee them whist they're detained and set the requirements which must be adhered to whilst they're in your care. That's what happens in civpol cells.
Again, that is not the job of the ordinary RMP NCO, that process should be decided by the chain of command and if needed be in place for use by those at the coalface. This brings us back, more or less, to the origins of this post and the failings of the senior RMP hierarchy to support the service.

We can slag off the Bobby on the beat, so to speak, but if they haven't got the tools to use then it is hardly their fault.

A root and branch review of the RMP is needed, starting at the top which is clear needs sorting out.

Couple of questions:
Now the RMP are part of the AGC, who is actually in charge? An RMP senior officer or an AGC senior officer?

I believe unit guardrooms are now history, do where does a soldier under arrest go? Is there a central cellblock properly run in line with civpol stations?
 
Is there any need for them now with satnav? :D
No idea mate, like you, I've been out a long time. I would think the recce Sgt or RMP detail could make use of GPS, but I wouldn't want to be the Tp Comd in front of the CO explaining why the packet was 40 miles out of location with "I used Google Maps on my iPhone, Sir" :)
 
Again, that is not the job of the ordinary RMP NCO, that process should be decided by the chain of command and if needed be in place for use by those at the coalface. This brings us back, more or less, to the origins of this post and the failings of the senior RMP hierarchy to support the service.

We can slag off the Bobby on the beat, so to speak, but if they haven't got the tools to use then it is hardly their fault.

A root and branch review of the RMP is needed, starting at the top which is clear needs sorting out.

Couple of questions:
Now the RMP are part of the AGC, who is actually in charge? An RMP senior officer or an AGC senior officer?

I believe unit guardrooms are now history, do where does a soldier under arrest go? Is there a central cellblock properly run in line with civpol stations?
RMP officers are AGC officers. Surely the PM is a career Monkey though. Any more than you put a Monkey as the head of the Special Pen Service.
 

Auld-Yin

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RMP officers are AGC officers. Surely the PM is a career Monkey though. Any more than you put a Monkey as the head of the Special Pen Service.
Is the PM of sufficient rank/have direct access to the top echelons or is he/she just a buckshee colonel holding down a staff job?
The Provost Marshal used to be a very influential officer with access to the top of the army.
 
skipping to the end. Quad service, all service police in one nice little organisation (inc MPGS and MoDGS) under the MoD police. Maybe throw in the CNC for good measure.
 
Is the PM of sufficient rank/have direct access to the top echelons or is he/she just a buckshee colonel holding down a staff job?
The Provost Marshal used to be a very influential officer with access to the top of the army.
A Brigadier, I believe.
 
No, dropped him at his block to get his head down if he was ok with me. He only went to the guardroom if he was under close arrest.
As much as I'm trying to see the silver lining on things here, from a policing point of view, you keep shooting yourself in the foot.

The fact that you haven't formally arrested the soldier doesn't mean that he's not in police custody. You've had to intervene so a court would say that he was at least drunk and incapable. If he is anything less, why would you intervene? He should therefore be taken somewhere where he would be safe such as the cells where he's placed on a mattress on the floor, with the cell door open and a watching guard sitting in the doorway +/- 15 minute checks.
 
A perfect storm of the last 16 years being heavily ops oriented with Afghan and Iraq and a withdrawal from BFG, have meant that RMP have heavily focussed on the soldiering side of things. Personalities at the top obviously direct focus.

The death of 9 RMP in the space of a couple of months in 2003 was a massive wake up call, IMHO. Leading to a necessary focus on ops.

Germany was where JNCOs cut their teeth on regular and full spectrum crime, making them competent and current. A return for most to U.K. has meant an over reliance on HO Police and the ability to delegate responsibility for crime to them. This has led to a degradation of competence and currency.

Hopefully this will lead to some short/medium and long term planning being put in place to reintroduce competence and currency.
 
Someone said upthread that the officer in question is an LE.

20 years as a practicing Monkey and then commissioned. If she had an arse/elbow recognition problem, then the rest of them are truly screwed.

What irritates me more than anything is that the facts have not been determined. Either the kids got bullied, and the instructors should be harshly punished, or the instructors are innocent and should have had their day in court. Double jeopardy and all that, none of this will now happen. Whoever dropped the ball, whether it was individuals in the RMP, collective policy in the RMP, individuals in SPA or collective policy in SPA, they need a rocket up their arse for this.

It's completely unacceptable to me (speaking as a former instructor).
As someone who has been on the wrong end of a CM it is a very demanding experience both mentally and emotionally, then to find out the supposed unbiased investigation has been anything but must be galling to all the accused. The RMP in charge and others in their CofC should be held accountable but this will never be the case.
 
FFS one of the first things I learned to do in basic (perfected over the years!,) was how to look the Cpl/Sgt/WO etc in the eye and lie through my teeth! Saved me several 'extras' at least.

Of course sqaddies are going to lie to plod, especially the "Look at me" RMP type plod! The role of the investigator I thought is to break down those lies and actually get to the truth. Even when they get to the "truth" they have to work out which truth is actually what happened as people's perceptions of events, while totally truthful, may not convey the actuality.

Strangely I am feeling more and more sorry for this female captain. She sounds totally out of her depth but even worse does not seem to have had sufficient support from her chain of command. How this passed the checks and balances to reach CM is beyond me.
This is along the lines of when the RAPTC SSI was the one who went to court and found guilty even though it was a failing in the CofC as well, it always come down to the lowest common denominator.
 
Is the PM of sufficient rank/have direct access to the top echelons or is he/she just a buckshee colonel holding down a staff job?
The Provost Marshal used to be a very influential officer with access to the top of the army.
The Provost Marshal is an RMP Brigadier.

Unit guardrooms are a thing of the past, there are now Service Custody Facilities dotted around the country which are run by the MPS, who are trained custodians.
 
Is the PM of sufficient rank/have direct access to the top echelons or is he/she just a buckshee colonel holding down a staff job?
The Provost Marshal used to be a very influential officer with access to the top of the army.
The PM holds a Brigadier rank. In the dim and distant past, the officers were seconded or transferred to the Corps (RMP) from other corps and regiments. There was no direct entry as there is now.

I'm not sure how it works now, but the PM would be outranked in the AGC, even though the provost wing operates as a distinct branch. I cannot see more senior AGC officers sitting on their hands if it came to it. They have a responsibility to the entire Corps
 
Again, that is not the job of the ordinary RMP NCO, that process should be decided by the chain of command and if needed be in place for use by those at the coalface. This brings us back, more or less, to the origins of this post and the failings of the senior RMP hierarchy to support the service.

We can slag off the Bobby on the beat, so to speak, but if they haven't got the tools to use then it is hardly their fault.

A root and branch review of the RMP is needed, starting at the top which is clear needs sorting out.

Couple of questions:
Now the RMP are part of the AGC, who is actually in charge? An RMP senior officer or an AGC senior officer?

I believe unit guardrooms are now history, do where does a soldier under arrest go? Is there a central cellblock properly run in line with civpol stations?
Hence the problem. The codes of conduct for safe detention is every police officers responsibility. The custody sergeant is also the PACE sergeant and is ultimately responsible for everything that happens in the custody suite. Health and welfare concerns are the responsibility of the HCP that's also in the suite and who will advise the custody sergeant in best safe practice. That's what should be happening in any cells, military or not.

Maybe then there's also a case for removing the military from the custodial chain in anything more than an advisory capacity.
 

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