Army 2020 Refine

I never said my son was proud of 'his RM history', I said they all buy into the whole ethos and history, to an extent.

And I've asked him the question about merging with the Paras; he seemed to think that it was a reasonable idea and was neither particularly for or against it.

My point though, was that the histories are largely made up, mostly I suspect, to create an identity, an aura, a belonging that people are able to buy into. Because esprit de corps is required.
Taffd

I stand corrected regards your sons view on paras and marines merging, as for made up stories maybe the battal honours sown to the colurs are not real?
 
Hello sailor! I know you live out of a kit bag, but we do actually have a little understanding where we are from:

The 2nd or Tangier Regiment of Foot had its first muster on Putney heath on the 14th October 1661 following King Charles II's warrant being issued for the formation of the British Army. It was raised in order to garrison the Port of Tangier, which Charles II had acquired as part of the dowry when he married Catherine of Braganza , the Infanta of Portugal. The Queen's, named after Queen Catherine, remained in Tangier for 23 years until the port was evacuated. The Regiment's first Battle Honour, "Tangier 1662-1680" is the oldest in the British Army.

PWRR formed 09 September 1992. I know I was there, and yes like your sons RM the Infantry has been re invented more times then Madonna, all about £££££££ same reason you lot dont have many boats, its shit and it only causes mayhem when amalgamation or change is put in place. You may well be all for it but I have lived through it and see it at the cole face.
In the name of god's holy buttock! Your cognitive impairment seems worse than mine. Not content with arguing with yourself, you're now inventing conglomerate people.

It's entirely because of you that the infantry is needing to be reformed

I'm going to have another cup of coffee, by which time I'll have forgotten what you've said.
 
Taffd

I stand corrected regards your sons view on paras and marines merging, as for made up stories maybe the battal honours sown to the colurs are not real?
There's actually a paper written about the RM ethos floating about the ether. If you can find it, and understand it, it explains what I mean by made-up histories.

My son by the way, once tried to explain to me that Bootnecks were so called because they wrapped the tongues of their boots around their necks in the old days, to stop sailors cutting their throats. Not a bite, there's plenty of Booties who'll believe such things.

Total bollocks of course but it's what he'd been led to believe.
 
Because it's broken.

20% not fully deployable doesn't cut it.

Nor does passing out inf recruits who can't pass their MATTs.

Nor does allowing inf soldiers to continue to serve who can't pass MATTs in their units.

Nor does being 20 to 30% undermanned.

Nor does a retention rate that's steadily going off the scale.

Nor does morale that's lower than it's ever been since measurement started.

Nor does pretending that a tenth of every current inf bn could be tier 2 SF.

Nor does pretending that if you decimated all your inf bns and took the top 10% you'd have anything left worth having.

Nor does being short of officers when you've got soldiers who'd make far better officers than half the pl comds I had.

The list goes on, but it's got little to do with A2020.
Because a Silent Toast doesn't solve or excuse any of the above or make the soldiers any better or recruiting or retention any higher or the infantry any better organised.

The band on the Titanic may have been inspirational, but they didn't stop it sinking.
John G

Im thinking back to the QUEENS were they 100% deployable, I remember people like the Battalion butcher he really did not look very deployable? you would know better then me, as for MATTs if you ask me they dont pass the ones they dont turn up to, the tests are a mess I know I do them, the new shooting test is point and press you cannot miss infanct I did not and I am an old man now. 20-30% undermaned is a fair comment but the Army is not doing anything and young lads want action, and there is high employment so not sure what the recruters can do about that.

Moral is down but we are half the size of the Army at the time of the ammalgamation in 92, and people are flying about all over the place. Truthfully the main issue is leadership its a mess constant panic management, the lads do not know if they are comming or going.

You go on there John so I will stop at those, the main point is the management and leadership of the Army is really poor and the effect is massive, I may of been a little slushed by the time I was going on about silant toasts etc last night so sorry about that, and no tradition means nothing when you need to manage an effective Army.

I do not see that we need to start again, however I suggest that the CGS has diffrent plans and with a 21 Billion spending gap no doubt the next SDSR will see the end to what we have left.
 
the Army is not doing anything and young lads want action
Any credibility that was left - gone.
Estonia for one, STTT's all over the place, Engineers are busy as hell. Let alone the exercises.

The Army isn't sat around bored in camp, if anything it's being over worked on deployments all over the globe with blokes having to delay career courses etc.. because they want to go and do the stuff that's on offer.
 
There's actually a paper written about the RM ethos floating about the ether. If you can find it, and understand it, it explains what I mean by made-up histories.

My son by the way, once tried to explain to me that Bootnecks were so called because they wrapped the tongues of their boots around their necks in the old days, to stop sailors cutting their throats. Not a bite, there's plenty of Booties who'll believe such things.

Total bollocks of course but it's what he'd been led to believe.
Taffd

Ill try not to read the RM ethos on a Sunday but cheers for the offer, I am sure there are some made up tails out there.
 
Any credibility that was left - gone.
Estonia for one, STTT's all over the place, Engineers are busy as hell. Let alone the exercises.

The Army isn't sat around bored in camp, if anything it's being over worked on deployments all over the globe with blokes having to delay career courses etc.. because they want to go and do the stuff that's on offer.
Please Estonia is a prison camp with enforced fun, a mate of mine a good warrent officer signed off after it, yes we are going all over but combat finished in 2014, thats what is being said. People join at 16-26 because they want to experiance combat.

Engineers busy? are they building play parks. blokes on exercise to think they must all be broken it might even rain. Delay career courses most cant get round a 8 miler to pass the in test.
 
and Shader? Toral?

If your argument is that recruitment is down due to a lack of combat operations then wouldn't we have seen the recruitment dip after we officially stopped HERRICK (because it didn't...)

Is your assumption that because you haven't seen them they aren't busy? Maybe look at the Ops we are doing all over Africa....
 
There's actually a paper written about the RM ethos floating about the ether. If you can find it, and understand it, it explains what I mean by made-up histories.

My son by the way, once tried to explain to me that Bootnecks were so called because they wrapped the tongues of their boots around their necks in the old days, to stop sailors cutting their throats. Not a bite, there's plenty of Booties who'll believe such things.

Total bollocks of course but it's what he'd been led to believe.
Will pass on the reading RM ethos cheers.
 
and Shader? Toral?

If your argument is that recruitment is down due to a lack of combat operations then wouldn't we have seen the recruitment dip after we officially stopped HERRICK (because it didn't...)

Is your assumption that because you haven't seen them they aren't busy? Maybe look at the Ops we are doing all over Africa....
Commentator

Iraq having spoken to a mate who was there last year there very diffrent from what we were doing 2003-2009. The point being the army is out of combat, we have not been in it since 2014. The army is supper busy the lads do not know if they are comming or going but what exactly are they being run around for? there is nothing going on, less low level stuff.
 
And your point above seemed to be that the Army has undermanned infantry because of a lack of combat operations.

I'm simply saying that if that was true wouldn't we have seen a recruiting fall straight away after we stopped HERRICK? As we didn't perhaps there are other issues - indeed you identified high employment which traditionally has made it difficult for the Forces to recruit, and seems to correlate a lot clearer with the recruiting figures.
 
Any credibility that was left - gone.
Estonia for one, STTT's all over the place, Engineers are busy as hell. Let alone the exercises.

The Army isn't sat around bored in camp, if anything it's being over worked on deployments all over the globe with blokes having to delay career courses etc.. because they want to go and do the stuff that's on offer.
Quite right, they are sat around bored in other places. The quest for interesting/meaningful work isnt very successful.
 
Not going to disagree with that one Stacker.
So many people in the Falklands....
You don't have to travel that far to be bored. A few months ago my regiment didnt want to put any names forward to assist with the clear up/aid in the Caribbean after the hurricane because there was a shit trade exercise coming up.
Priorities eh?
 
Esprit de corps is a feeling of loyalty and pride that is shared by the members of a group who consider themselves to be different from other people in some special way. This could be by geographical location or family connection. Some Cap badges have that in buckets whether ones going back to Culloden or the newer ones like the Lancs or Yorks, so a team build round a shared identity certainly adds to the Esprit de corps.
Don't throw out cap badges because you don't like them, the Canadians did that and rather regreted it.
So a unit that is based in 1 barracks with a shared purpose etc etc can’t have espirit de Corps?

My argument isn’t necessarily change them to 1-32 Inf Bn, it is not allowing a “need” to retain cap badges to reduce combat capability
 
So a unit that is based in 1 barracks with a shared purpose etc etc can’t have espirit de Corps?

My argument is not necessarily change them to 1-32 Inf Bn, it is not allowing a “need” to retain cap badges to reduce combat capability
irlsgt

I belive in what I belive in. I have served in this countries infantry since 20 years old, not a rodney but a soldier. I had no care for the cap badge I wore until years into the job when it meant something to me after fighting shoulder to shoulder with fellow Tigers, so much that as a Sgt sent to the Anglians who told me to wear there cap badge I said "NO" to there Commnding Officer, trust me that was not a good move.

As it goes a bunch of other Tigers from the second Battalion attached to the Anglians also said the same, they got away with it as they were leaving the Army, I was attached and in the end was orderd to do it.

I am not so fuc__ng stupud as to belive that it means I am a better soldier then the man in another Unit, if I did I would be a Para or a Marine. It represents 5 home counties who have stood with the same embelems as me.

You may think that is sh_t, and I am not upset or offended by that and will not be seeing the UWO Monday, but trust me one of the biggest honours I had was turning the Page in Canterbury Cathederal in the Warrior Chappel.

x100 Privete soldeirs per turn of the page in a book one of four that was at least 10 cm thick of paper all names of men that had gone before me including a soldier in my section.

Shit on it all you want, but I am happy to say no I do belive in the system I have served, just not so sure about that the leaders above me belive in it.

Like I said before this 24 hour plus exchange, I do not belive there is a need to rip it all up and throw away the infantry that has stood since 1661 doing everything this country has asked of it including the great and second world War.

Fusilier Guardsman Rifleman Private Kingsman etc all part of the remaining 17 Regimental systems, do not need to be smashed, I would say a re ballance and look at how we can best employ them in an effective Army so that we can serve Britain for another 357 years. Just maybe so that we also think about the needs of the Country Army and the soldier and his family.

Rant over.
 
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