Army ‘to be cut by 20,000’ if No 10 plan is approved

Euclid

War Hero
Carter needs to go. And go quickly.
But then he’ll be hanging around the House of Lords like a bad smell.
 
Yeah, why should the UK worry about troublesome alliances like NATO which states that Russia and China are security issues. Let's walk away from our treaty commitments to Europe and the USA; but as we're such wonderful people, should we ever get into trouble about anything in the future, I'm sure the Europeans and North Americans will rush to our aid.
Why does NATO think that Russia and China are a threat? The Russians haven't bothered Europe, they supply gas to a lot of it, so how are they a threat?
Similarly China has spent a couple of decades building trade and trade routes across Asia and into Europe, for the benefit of all concerned.
I'd suggest that NATO is now obsolete, spread far from the North Atlantic, the European members reluctant to meet its minimum requirements.
The RN can play in the Greenland/ Iceland/ UK gap and free up a US carrier group to play in the Pacific, the RAF can watch and intercept hostiles way beyond our shores.
Meanwhile, the army sits unused and unloved in its barracks, too small to be of more than token force in a major war against peers, and too expensive to use in penny packets in minor ones.
Because once you start to use cyber for military effects then the Geneva Convention applies to cybers the same as anyone else who fights by pushing buttons
How so, Bob, if the Geneva Convention predates even the idea of cyber?
 
Must be a different 32 Signal Regiment from the one that I knew...
Oh, I don't doubt that he was exaggerating; this was someone who ended up with the MOULD Troop, the jammy sod. Weekends in civvy Landrovers, camping out across Scotland, doing low-key rebro...

It would be reassuring to hear that I had the wrong end of the stick, but then iwAs jUst a fiCk ifNtry type.
 
Oh, I don't doubt that he was exaggerating; but this was someone who ended up with the MOULD Troop, the jammy sod. Weekends in civvy Landrovers, camping out across Scotland...

It would be reassuring to hear that I had the wrong end of the stick, but then iwAs jUst a fick ifntry type.
I had a MOULD Troop, it was brilliant! I had a couple of NCRS too. In total, I had 6 Dets, as much as I had eights years later as an OC Sqn.
 

Bob65

War Hero
How so, Bob, if the Geneva Convention predates even the idea of cyber?
If the goal is to take out, say, a power station, you could push some buttons to program and launch a Tomahawk, or push some different buttons to cyber it. Both are weapons that post-date the Geneva Convention. But if it applies to the people who launch one, why wouldn’t it apply to the other? The bit about uniformed combatants.
 
Why does NATO think that Russia and China are a threat? The Russians haven't bothered Europe, they supply gas to a lot of it, so how are they a threat?
Well, the Georgians and the Ukrainians have the Russian Army parked on large chunks of their territory, and they didn't get there quietly. Did you miss the annexation of the Crimea?

The GRU has been caught in lots of places it shouldn't, doing stuff that deserves a slap (I mean, committing murders in the UK with radiological and chemical weapons is hardly "oh, they haven't bothered us").

The Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians are somewhat twitchy about being in the "Near Abroad" (see: Russian cyber attacks on their infrastructure); and the Poles and Finns keep a weather eye on the nation whose nuttier extremists maintain that the Grand Duchy of Finland should still be part of Russia, or that Katyn was nothing to do with us, guv, honest.
 
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If the goal is to take out, say, a power station, you could push some buttons to program and launch a Tomahawk, or push some different buttons to cyber it. Both are weapons that post-date the Geneva Convention. But if it applies to the people who launch one, why wouldn’t it apply to the other? The bit about uniformed combatants.
Thanks for clarifying.
 
Why does cyber have to be even in theatre or in uniform?
Caveat: I know absolutely nothing about UK reality of cyberwarfare. So the following is pure guesswork from first principles - no winks, no nods, I genuinely haven't got a clue.

Firstly, do you want a defensive or an offensive capability? Much like Porton Down and NBC warfare, you'll always need a certain amount of offensive research to make sure that you're on top of your defensive game.

Secondly, is this "Intelligence" or "Executive" (as in the wartime SIS/SOE divide)? Do you just want to extract intelligence, or to f*** things up.

Thirdly, are the effects intended to be tactical / operational, or strategic? Because I rather suspect that "make the civvy power stations go dark, and f*** their banks up" is a rather hefty strategic move (and dodgy ground under the Law of Armed Conflict). However, if you're trying to inject dodgy shit into someone's radio-borne datacomms Divisional logistics net, you might well be sat in a wagon fairly close to them, trying to sneak in through a sidelobe.

Finally, how much bandwidth have you got, between "out of theatre" and your target? All very well claiming you can do it from Cheltenham, but how do you get the data in and out - it's not as if all of your targets are going to make it easy for you by laying on a nice OC-3 line. Never underestimate the bandwidth of a carload of magnetic tape driving up the M6, or a trained punter on-site with a well-loaded laptop.

Consider Act One of Op GRANBY - some tooled-up gentlemen with impressive mustaches, digging a hole to find a fibreoptic cable, then cutting it with extreme prejudice. What if they'd had the option of tapping it instead? How might they have carried out the sandy equivalent of IVY BELLS? At what point does screwing with C3I become "cyberwarfare"?

So yes, I suppose lots can be done from the UK. But I also suspect that a certain amount will have to be done by some poor b*stards in uniform getting close enough to need to defend themselves, or to have solid legal ground under LOAC.
 
Well from what I’ve heard the RAF Regiment have Been sending Airmen to the USAF PJ course. I tried to blag my way on it in 99. The purchase of the 16 MH47G must not be that far away, what with CSG, littoral strike, SF, perhaps MC has told NC that this is required, as he had good thing to say about the II Sqn lads in SFSG.
 
Well from what I’ve heard the RAF Regiment have Been sending Airmen to the USAF PJ course. I tried to blag my way on it in 99. The purchase of the 16 MH47G must not be that far away, what with CSG, littoral strike, SF, perhaps MC has told NC that this is required, as he had good thing to say about the II Sqn lads in SFSG.
The full 2 year course? Did anyone ask the RAF Medical Services?
 
The vital ground in COIN being..... the local population
I guess your not familiar with force density..... Its a crude calculus on the ratio of soldiers to civvies. The number fluctuates over the years, from 1 to 25 soldiers per 1000 hostile/happy/indifferent civvies. Technology and Intelligence ops can reduce the ratio, but the lower the ratio, the greater the odds you will end up in a serious attritional conflict (aim of the guerilla) and lose the impetus.

As your irish, we had a NI density of roughly 1 security personnel including RUC, to 18 catholics. That gave us the ability to dominate the ground and keep the violence to a minimum, but for political reasons could not fully shut down the border, so a low burning counter insurgency and then after a series of failures PIRA switched to direct attacks outside of NI.

Conclusion:-
Small armies get eaten by guerillas, unless directed to mobile strategic operations away from the urban pop. Small armies without an adequate reserve get eaten in full on wars and given the lethality of modern equipment, that kill ratio will be likely doubled in recent years.
 
Well, the Georgians and the Ukrainians have the Russian Army parked on large chunks of their territory, and they didn't get there quietly. Did you miss the annexation of the Crimea?

The GRU has been caught in lots of places it shouldn't, doing stuff that deserves a slap (I mean, committing murders in the UK with radiological and chemical weapons is hardly "oh, they haven't bothered us").

The Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians are somewhat twitchy about being in the "Near Abroad" (see: Russian cyber attacks on their infrastructure); and the Poles and Finns keep a weather eye on the nation whose nuttier extremists maintain that the Grand Duchy of Finland should still be part of Russia, or that Katyn was nothing to do with us, guv, honest.
so basically, the Russians are confining themselves to their former empire and client states....
 
Well, the Georgians and the Ukrainians have the Russian Army parked on large chunks of their territory, and they didn't get there quietly. Did you miss the annexation of the Crimea?

The GRU has been caught in lots of places it shouldn't, doing stuff that deserves a slap (I mean, committing murders in the UK with radiological and chemical weapons is hardly "oh, they haven't bothered us").

The Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians are somewhat twitchy about being in the "Near Abroad" (see: Russian cyber attacks on their infrastructure); and the Poles and Finns keep a weather eye on the nation whose nuttier extremists maintain that the Grand Duchy of Finland should still be part of Russia, or that Katyn was nothing to do with us, guv, honest.
IIRC Georgia kicked off in the mistaken belief that NATO would come charging to its rescue, which NATO then declined to do.
Ukraine, the Baltics, Finns, Poles et al all look at things from history, less so current status.
As for GRU/FSB/SVR playing away, they're doing what every other nation does, if rather sloppily. Those chemical and nuclear attacks, from memory, killed 2 people and made 3 more ill for a while, hardly weapons of mass destruction.
So how is Russia, or China, a threat to UK?
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
so basically, the Russians are confining themselves to their former empire and client states....
Just like Hitler was only assembling Greater Germany by collecting those areas that were ethnically German, or historically German, or had in the past fallen under German control. (Oh, and a little bit of Lebensraum, but that was in the East and he hoped nobody of significance would mind)

 
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