Army ‘to be cut by 20,000’ if No 10 plan is approved

Again, you said "not now we have nukes and drones that can wipe out entire battalions fairly easily" - which missile and cluster-mine carrying drones do we have? How many, with what payload?
I don't keep track of model numbers of drones and stuff - it's not something that interests me. However I can make a drone in my house with a 3d printer and Arduino and could easily fit it with an open source guidance system, and payload if I felt the urge. The government have far more money + expertise than me, and can easliy do the same thing, and I'm sure they already have the tech and knowledge to do that already.

There's nothing stopping a plane, missile or some other method of delivery to drop a drone swarm and command them via a master drone/satellite comms on a location identified by satellite to take out a large area with pinpoint accuracy.
 
Exactly - I went parachuting one day, done a couple of hours training in the morning and jumped out of a plane in the afternoon.

There's infantry that can be trained up in the event they need to jump out of a plane at some point. It's not rocket science. People did it in WW2 and have been doing it ever since - and there's lots of advancements in that field since then.
There was the method expressed in "Bridge over the River Kwai" (the book) "you have x percent chance of death/injury jumping into a live LZ, no matter how hard we train you.. so we're just going to fly you over and chuck you out....
 
For those that think Cyber is not a threat we need to take seriously take a look at this:


Wars nowadays are not fought by boots on the ground, they are fought by nerds on laptops from every country in the world trying to take down banks, spread computer viruses and cause damage to infrastructure & the ability of a company to function by infiltrating servers, phishing attacks and then blackmailing etc.

1 dweeb on a laptop can cause millions of pounds of damage in 2 minutes - from the comfort of a bedroom. Look at how the NHS was taken down a couple of years ago - and they were lucky that some other hacker found some string in the code to stop the attack, it wasn't boots on the ground that stopped that attack - it was luck & a single geek buying a domain name.

Also we have disinformation campaigns on social media sites, and look at what BLM has done to USA in the last few months, they are wanting to defund police etc & some of the public are behind this due to being brainwashed by the left. We also have internal problems to sort out - with the left wing infiltration of the media, schools, universities, and the biased MSN - these are bigger threats to our democracy just now - and the government need to get a grip of that as well, it doesn't help that the Labour Party are now commies & wee Jimmy Crankie is trying to f**k Boris and Co up at every opportunity....these people need to be sorted out as well.
 
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lextalionis

Old-Salt
Interesting on-topic contribution from an essay on “Unherd”: 'Global Britain' is in for a rude awakening - UnHerd
I would say that this is a fairly good analysis.
There are a few things to consider if the long-term decline in defence-spending is to be reversed:

1. The case needs to be made that defence is not a net cost (unlike welfare) but that it is an investment whose returns are in some sense quantifiable (even if this requires a new form of accounting) and that Britain's worldwide reputation derives in part from it;

2. A more quantifiable approach to the benefits and costs of defence should be paralleled by a robust form of lobbying (within legal and political constraints) to ensure that the sector is at least as well-defended as health and education;

3. The reduction in the size of the civil service MoD should be taken advantage of to ensure that military/naval perspectives are at the heart, rather than the periphery, of the presence in Whitehall.

We surely have enough generals, admirals and air officers to do that.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
I don't keep track of model numbers of drones and stuff - it's not something that interests me. However I can make a drone in my house with a 3d printer and Arduino and could easily fit it with an open source guidance system, and payload if I felt the urge. The government have far more money + expertise than me, and can easliy do the same thing, and I'm sure they already have the tech and knowledge to do that already.

There's nothing stopping a plane, missile or some other method of delivery to drop a drone swarm and command them via a master drone/satellite comms on a location identified by satellite to take out a large area with pinpoint accuracy.
Actually, there's quite a lot stopping that - hence why grandiose claims about "drone swarms" and the like tend to turn into embarrassed pauses and "...well of course that part of the technology's not mature" when questions about range, payload and TRL are asked.

Worth looking at and some potential, but currently being misrepresented and over-sold by folk who've read too much speculative fiction...
 
Actually, there's quite a lot stopping that - hence why grandiose claims about "drone swarms" and the like tend to turn into embarrassed pauses and "...well of course that part of the technology's not mature" when questions about range, payload and TRL are asked.

Worth looking at and some potential, but currently being misrepresented and over-sold by folk who've read too much speculative fiction...
Dude an Airport (Gatwick) was shut down for 2/3 days in 2018 for someone claiming they had spotted a drone - which was never found. 140,000 passengers affected, ~1,000 flights diverted/cancelled, and god knows what the financial cost was.



I could post more links - but drones are a real threat, whether you think it's fantasy or not.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
Dude an Airport (Gatwick) was shut down for 2/3 days in 2018 for someone claiming they had spotted a drone - which was never found.
In other words, panic and snake oil. No damage, no confirmed sightings, the fear of a drone caused the closure.

That's got very little to do with the overblown claims for any bored teenager being able to print off a drone swarm and wipe out an armoured brigade / bring down the US Air Force / sink a carrier battle group...
 
That's got very little to do with the overblown claims for any bored teenager being able to print off a drone swarm and wipe out an armoured brigade / bring down the US Air Force / sink a carrier battle group...
Well that's not what was said - and you seem to think that drones are not a threat, yet the Government of USA/UK and a few others are investing heavily in this concept and UK government is willing to get rid of the para's to finance that. So either you don't understand the technology or can't see the woods for the trees.

Maybe you never read about the Drone swarm that took out an oil production facility in Saudi Arabia last year -


Do you need more proof or do you think that's a made up story?
 

Guns

ADC
Moderator
Book Reviewer
Well that's not what was said - and you seem to think that drones are not a threat, yet the Government of USA/UK and a few others are investing heavily in this concept and UK government is willing to get rid of the para's to finance that. So either you don't understand the technology or can't see the woods for the trees.

Maybe you never read about the Drone swarm that took out an oil production facility in Saudi Arabia last year -


Do you need more proof or do you think that's a made up story?
You keep at him. What does he know - what with his years of experience studying these things for a living. We don't need no experts.
 
One cannot deny that cyber-warfare is a real and growing domain which the UK needs to master. However the physical aspect of warfare is not going to magically disappear and adequate capability must be retained in this domain. It’s not a question of either/or. Those who argue that way are extremely blinkered.
 
You keep at him. What does he know - what with his years of experience studying these things for a living. We don't need no experts.
And yet - where have I said anything untrue? If he's spent years studying these things he must be aware how easy it and cheap it is to make a drone, how these things can be used in swarms etc, how they can be autonomous and commanded remotely and fitted with payloads.
I would be ashamed if I spent years studying stuff and didn't know or take threats seriously.


 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
Maybe you never read about the Drone swarm that took out an oil production facility in Saudi Arabia last year -

Do you need more proof or do you think that's a made up story?
I'm moderately familiar with that event. It wasn't done by a "drone swarm", it was just a salvo attack by a combination of armed UAS and cruise missiles.

That being part of the problem - excitable people leaping up and down in a game of buzzword bingo with little actual understanding of what things like "drone swarm" actually mean.

Now, if it makes you feel better, we can establish a network-enabled environment to facilitate the operation of our reconnaisance-strike complex, which enables swarming RPAS to FIND, FIX and STRIKE high-value enemy targets. This will dislocate our opponent in both the physical and cognitive domain by bringing a full range of cognitive and kinetic effects to bear and weakening their grasp of the Levers of Power, as they are enclosed in a "Ring of Fire" across all the dimensions of the joint and combined battlespaces while we leverage our synergies via a full suite of capabilities to successfully achieve our MEANS via low-risk ENDS.

But it's rather harder to build effective, working systems than it is to generate turgid PowerPoint.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
And yet - where have I said anything untrue? If he's spent years studying these things he must be aware how easy it and cheap it is to make a drone, how these things can be used in swarms etc, how they can be autonomous and commanded remotely and fitted with payloads.
That's sort of the point - the drones, the payloads, the remote control, are the easy part, have been around for decades and are well understood.

It's the "autonomous" and "swarming" aspect that turn out to be really hard outside of carefully-scripted test cases - and which distract from the more mundane realities of the threat.
 
I'm moderately familiar with that event. It wasn't done by a "drone swarm", it was just a salvo attack by a combination of armed UAS and cruise missiles.

That being part of the problem - excitable people leaping up and down in a game of buzzword bingo with little actual understanding of what things like "drone swarm" actually mean.

Now, if it makes you feel better, we can establish a network-enabled environment to facilitate the operation of our reconnaisance-strike complex, which enables swarming RPAS to FIND, FIX and STRIKE high-value enemy targets. This will dislocate our opponent in both the physical and cognitive domain by bringing a full range of cognitive and kinetic effects to bear and weakening their grasp of the Levers of Power, as they are enclosed in a "Ring of Fire" across all the dimensions of the joint and combined battlespaces while we leverage our synergies via a full suite of capabilities to successfully achieve our MEANS via low-risk ENDS.

But it's rather harder to build effective, working systems than it is to generate turgid PowerPoint.
Well the bottom line is, the Government are wanting to spend money on Cyber & Drones and getting rid of the para's to pay for it - they must see that as something worth investing in and a higher priority to spend money on.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
Well the bottom line is, the Government are wanting to spend money on Cyber & Drones and getting rid of the para's to pay for it - they must see that as something worth investing in and a higher priority to spend money on.
Investment in "cyber and drones" has been ongoing for a long time - it's over fifteen years since the RN were testing UAVs from frigates (Trial ARKANTOS on, from memory, St Albans back in 2004ish), writing TACNOTES about "low slow flyers" - manned or unmanned - in 2008 and observing the US BLACK DART trials with close interest.

Hence, a certain jaded cynicism about those who have apparently only just noticed that "drones" have some utility and are demanding that we all panic to order.
 
And yet - where have I said anything untrue? If he's spent years studying these things he must be aware how easy it and cheap it is to make a drone, how these things can be used in swarms etc, how they can be autonomous and commanded remotely and fitted with payloads.
I would be ashamed if I spent years studying stuff and didn't know or take threats seriously.


Beware of false equivalence in between state actor level drone capabilities and amateur/self-starter efforts.

Isis managed to drop 40mm grenades with aplomb and provide a psychological threat in Northern Iraq. However they were already in a warzone and could repurpose readily available war grade munitions, leverage available specialist skills, and generate a threat at the tactical level.

idle chat about self starting lone actors doesn't sink warships and does more to feed geek/nerd fantasies about their imagined power, rather than their actual impotence
 
Exactly - I went parachuting one day, done a couple of hours training in the morning and jumped out of a plane in the afternoon.

There's infantry that can be trained up in the event they need to jump out of a plane at some point. It's not rocket science. People did it in WW2 and have been doing it ever since - and there's lots of advancements in that field since then.
I'm beginning to think you're not even old enough to join the AF.
 
This is quite interesting

He's said he's over to get the US poiint of view and direction of travel ahead of the IR before decisions are set in stone.
Lots of chat about Hereford and the Royal Marines - guess the thugs, geeks and Spooks sobriquet still applies
 

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