Army ‘to be cut by 20,000’ if No 10 plan is approved

W21A

LE
Book Reviewer
Not read whole thread - IMHO, Army, big enough to contribute to NATO trip wire and some home defence. Non warfighting deployments (Enough to say you'll get a bloody nose.) to out of area commitments, FI, Cyprus, etc. Navy and airforce big enough to dominate and warfight effectively in UK sea and airspace. CDS capable of telling politicians 'no'.
 
Shall I start with pensions? A civil servant earning on average £28,600 PA will retire with an pension of around £17,538. A private sector work on the same annual salary will receive around £6,412. The private sector worker would have to save 30% of his yearly income to retire on the same salary as the public sector worker.
Do people REALLY have to survive in old age on such sums of money? I had no idea.

Is there a charity or a trust that I can donate some tins of food or old clothes to?
 
Not read whole thread - IMHO, Army, big enough to contribute to NATO trip wire and some home defence. Non warfighting deployments (Enough to say you'll get a bloody nose.) to out of area commitments, FI, Cyprus, etc. Navy and airforce big enough to dominate and warfight effectively in UK sea and airspace. CDS capable of telling politicians 'no'.
Without the last (in any circumstances), you might as well forget about any sense for the rest.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
You ARE aware CS pensions are not 'free'.?
Compared to private sector, they're a bargain - lower contributions for much higher benefits.

It's one of the few retention positives for the experienced old hands...
 
Compared to private sector, they're a bargain - lower contributions for much higher benefits.

It's one of the ONLY retention positives for the experienced old hands...

FOC


In real terms CS pay has been cut by @ 25% from 2008/2010
 

Cromarty

Old-Salt
Because Boris Alexander etcetera Johnson* is incapable of functioning without a security blanket to nuzzle up to so that he can sleep?

* Johnson: [slang. USA] Penis.​
Gratuitous, I know . . . but, hey I'm not wrong, and you know it :thumleft:
And just what is wrong with a security blanket?! :mad: I love my blankie!!:blowkiss:
 

napier

LE
Moderator
Kit Reviewer
You ARE aware CS pensions are not 'free'.?

And an 'average £28,600'? Thats the top end of the D Band.
At the time the article you cited was written, the average CS pay was £23,000.
As usual, Higher CS is included in the headline figure to make CS pay and pensions look stellar.
Don’t like it? Go and work for someone else. It’s a free market; there’s bound to be a queue of employers looking for your skills.....

Oh ****, you’re a career civil servant who didn’t have the nouse to promote beyond the chip on his shoulder.
 
Don’t like it? Go and work for someone else. It’s a free market; there’s bound to be a queue of employers looking for your skills.....

Oh ****, you’re a career civil servant who didn’t have the nouse to promote beyond the chip on his shoulder.
you’re not the sharpest of tools ‘just leave Bob’.....if all the CS left, who’d run MOD?
Or don’t you believe any CS should have a reasonable expectation the TACOS they signed up for should endure more than a few months?
 
I think one year is too long and the opposition to general conscription is legion....... A shorter period for say 18 year olds, either along swiss lines of a full 21 weeks, or even less, a 12 week programme through MPC which massively expands to give kids say three months basic including individual weapons training and a guaranteed place in the army reserve for say 2 years and then regular recruitment is drawn from the AR.
I can't believe people still believe conscription, whether tweaked or not, can be successfully introduced in the UK :censored:.

I repeat what's been said many, many times:

Where are the instructors going to come from that have no impact on regular/Reserve AF numbers and ability to train & deploy?

Where is the accommodation to house & train conscripts and their PS & families going to come from or the schooling for their children?

Where is the range time for conscripts going to come from that doesn't impact regular/Reserve AF?

Where is the money coming from for the AF to conduct this activity and the money to pay for the conscripts?

Where is the equipment, clothing, food and transport going to come from and who will maintain the eqpt and pay for it all?

Once you've successfully :rolleyes: trained & motivated the first tranch of these conscripts, where do you place them and in what units if there is no local unit, who pays for the travel to & from Res centre & where is the budget for them?

Now all these basic trained conscripts are successfully :rolleyes:located with Res units, who pays for their trade training and where does it take place considering trade schools will already have their annual courses for regular personnel and Reserves already booked & organised?

Now you've successfully :Dgot all these conscripts through basic, placed them into units and had them trade trained how do you motivate them, or their Res comrades into joining the regular Army/Navy/Air Force when you've forced them into conscription, forced them into the Res, forced them to undertake trade training that's probably very far from the jobs they've been trained & employed at in civvy street and likely lost them money compared to what they'd have earned in civvy street?
 
you’re not the sharpest of tools ‘just leave Bob’.....if all the CS left, who’d run MOD?
Or don’t you believe any CS should have a reasonable expectation the TACOS they signed up for should endure more than a few months?
There’s no such thing as a job for life.

I’ve met enough career civil servants who’s career has stalled and who with a massive chip on their shoulders about TACOS to know that you don’t contribute as much as you think you do.

Ageing, chippy civil servants who have failed promotion don’t run the MOD any more than passed-over Majors run the Army. They are just part of the bureaucracy, often bitter and twisted about how unfair the changes that have occurred over their long, institutionalised careers. But totally lacking the moral courage to get off the thinning gravy train.

There’s a hard rain coming.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
you’re not the sharpest of tools ‘just leave Bob’.....if all the CS left, who’d run MOD?
Why is that the problem of underpaid, undervalued CS?

And if enough people are deciding the offer's not so awful - and they can't find better options elsewhere - that the system survives, then there's evidence it can't be that bad.

It's quite possible to step out of a moderately senior role in MoD CS (well, a trading fund thereof) to the private sector, and roughly double your salary thereby. There are benefits and drawbacks in doing so, of course.

I know some very good folk who are staying because they like the work and the stability, the offer's not unacceptable, and the downsides of leaving outweigh the advantages. Some have jumped ship. I know others who are staying because they know they can't do better elsewhere; and of course there's the merry-go-round of graduates coming in, doing a few years and then moving on.

But staying put while moaning endlessly about how hard done by you are achieves precisely sqrt(0) - actions count, complaining doesn't.
 
Dun_n_dusted post #505 referenced the point that national service was never coming back and that was the 'reality' presented to me and what I was replying too. You jumped on that, without understanding a reality or environment can change when the facts change.

The facts:-
If you reduce the size of an active service, ALL your reserves over time will also reduce. That is an established fact and quite important to the army chiefs of the past, as they're seemed to understand that your entire reserve component, should be a factor above 1, in relation to the active land forces.

Conclusion:-
The present army is seriously undermanned on its reserve side already and a reduction of 20k active soldiers would create a serious problem in our ability to sustain a conflict over time.
Fantasy stuff, beats reality every time. It's possible to reduce the size of the Army and increase the AR so it isn't an establised fact. Well done for not using FACT!!!!! though. It's been established that different armies have different ratios. HTH.

Nobody has argued that a cut in numbers would be a good thing.
 
I can't believe people still believe conscription, whether tweaked or not, can be successfully introduced in the UK :censored:.

I repeat what's been said many, many times:

Where are the instructors going to come from that have no impact on regular/Reserve AF numbers and ability to train & deploy?

Where is the accommodation to house & train conscripts and their PS & families going to come from or the schooling for their children?

Where is the range time for conscripts going to come from that doesn't impact regular/Reserve AF?

Where is the money coming from for the AF to conduct this activity and the money to pay for the conscripts?

Where is the equipment, clothing, food and transport going to come from and who will maintain the eqpt and pay for it all?

Once you've successfully :rolleyes: trained & motivated the first tranch of these conscripts, where do you place them and in what units if there is no local unit, who pays for the travel to & from Res centre & where is the budget for them?

Now all these basic trained conscripts are successfully :rolleyes:located with Res units, who pays for their trade training and where does it take place considering trade schools will already have their annual courses for regular personnel and Reserves already booked & organised?

Now you've successfully :Dgot all these conscripts through basic, placed them into units and had them trade trained how do you motivate them, or their Res comrades into joining the regular Army/Navy/Air Force when you've forced them into conscription, forced them into the Res, forced them to undertake trade training that's probably very far from the jobs they've been trained & employed at in civvy street and likely lost them money compared to what they'd have earned in civvy street?
Reserves are cheaper than regular active soldiers? It was the primary reasoning for scrapping the TA and replacing it with a new reserve commitment, to justify the reduction in the size of the active soldiers. The net result today: We have less reserves than serving soldiers !

If we reduce the serving active element, then haven't we proven that the reserves as presently constructed, cannot be expected to cover the gap, without a steeper fall in the reserves and its those reserves which are supposed to be the element that will defend our sovereign territory and in an emergency cover any attritional losses.

The military is already becoming less and less seen as a workable career by the young and that downward trend, will get steeper post any army cuts.
 
The CS did the same in 2010-11. A couple of my colleagues did very nicely indeed out of it.
A certain org lost a lot of its tech expertise on that exercise, subsequently re-employed as contracting scum for various places, asked to return and told them to poke it. As contracting scum already it was a pleasure to meet them and get the full story on past things without them having to sell the company line.
 
the civil service has never experienced meaningful cuts so they had nothing to relate to.
Somebody hasn't been paying attention
 

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