Army ‘to be cut by 20,000’ if No 10 plan is approved

[SkippedOnce]

Could be crewed by God and all his archangels for the difference it would make to an elderly SSK's acoustic signature and thus life expectancy.

What are these 'facts' of which you speak: we're into wild, goggle-eyed, tinfoil-beret conspiraloon territory here? (It is , after all, Friday.)

 

[bob231]

What are these 'facts' of which you speak: we're into wild, goggle-eyed, tinfoil-beret conspiraloon territory here? (It is , after all, Friday.)

I regret only having one funny to give, inasmuch as you link "God and all his archangels" and "facts"!

 

[SkippedOnce]

I regret only having one funny to give, inasmuch as you link "God and all his archangels" and "facts"!

@scarbrough will doubtless be along shortly to explain/evangelise.

 

[FEASG]

These RFA vessels that routinely carry RM‘s and have a embarked aviation asset?

I remember seeing a documentary, about a British SSN transiting the Suez, they had a pintle mounted GPMG, mounted on the coning tower and were relying on flank cover by a Bn of Egyptian troops. a few dug in and concealed AT-4, could cause some serious problems, as I doubt you could crash dive in the canal.

 

[Himmler74]

I remember seeing a documentary, about a British SSN transiting the Suez, they had a pintle mounted GPMG, mounted on the coning tower and were relying on flank cover by a Bn of Egyptian troops. a few dug in and concealed AT-4, could cause some serious problems, as I doubt you could crash dive in the canal.

It would have a better chance than the current army heavy metal strategy. CR3 supported by boxers? Bueller?Bueller?anyone?

 

[tiger stacker]

HMS UNSEEN was better IMO.

Was that the tome where Kilcreggan is used as the fitness run, showing how unfit you become underwater

 

[alfred_the_great]

Was that the tome where Kilcreggan is used as the fitness run, showing how unfit you become underwater

Nah - where the Iranians stole the plans to RN U Class, bolted on a LR SAM and started shooting down trans-Atlantic airliners.

 

[FEASG]

It would have a better chance than the current army heavy metal strategy. CR3 supported by boxers? Bueller?Bueller?anyone?

That's never in the plan, they will dismount from the Boxers and hold on to some especially fitted stirrups on the CH3, just like waterloo

 

[Fat POM]

That's never in the plan, they will dismount from the Boxers and hold on to some especially fitted stirrups on the CH3, just like waterloo

Scots Greys walt

 

[OTCOllie]

Be interesting when the government get told "sorry but we can't do that anymore" next time they plan some foreign adventure..

TBH about bloody time... you know what happened the last time we fought a war for the French...

Successive governments have proven that they indeed do not have a ******* clue but some bright spark thought this was the best ending to "COVID Rishi and the Magic Money Tree".

In a few years, we'll see...

 

[Himmler74]

TBH about bloody time... you know what happened the last time we fought a war for the French...

Successive governments have proven that they indeed do not have a ******* clue but some bright spark thought this was the best ending to "COVID Rishi and the Magic Money Tree".

In a few years, we'll see...

Well I’d expect the next expeditionary adventure would occur shortly after the next labour government takes office.

 

[History_Man]

Well I’d expect the next expeditionary adventure would occur shortly after the next labour government takes office.

You might have a long wait...

 

[Himmler74]

You might have a long wait...

Just as well. As the Army seem to have again and again sacrificed capabilities over cap badges, Nick Carter banging on about the “Rangers” being SF, whilst dismissing RM and Parachute Regiment.
He has done more harm to the capabilities of the British army, just to protect the MAFIA.

 

[Yokel]

Just for fun/completeness, I am going to post this here:

@PhotEx may not like this.

Netherlands joining in CSG21 deployment

.....from the North Atlantic, through to the Mediterranean, Indian Ocean and on to the Indo-Pacific. The strike group will undertake a range of operations and training with allies and partners, including maritime missions with NATO in the Mediterranean and Coalition operations in the Middle East.

 

[jrwlynch]

What are these 'facts' of which you speak: we're into wild, goggle-eyed, tinfoil-beret conspiraloon territory here? (It is , after all, Friday.)

Wah shield up, assuming this is semi-serious...

Putting it in LAND terms, a partial translation is "if terrorists from Fumbuckistan manage to get hold of a T-55 tank, then with a mercenary crew it can drive around laying waste to whole continents because nobody knows how to deal with it or destroy it, it's an unstoppable way to win".

One difference being that a tank needs three or four crew, an old Romeo-class SSK needs ten times that many; and the skill level required is higher, with a much greater penalty for errors and failures (most - not all - problems with an old tank tend to involve it stopping and refusing to move, or bits breaking, rather than all the crew dying in a single awful incident). There are other technical issues why operating submarines is difficult, and operating someone else's submarine is really difficult - just down to the extra size and complexity and the issue of operating under, rather than on, the water (because being surfaced means you're visible and therefore compromised).

How many people - even if they've played everything from M1 Tank Platoon to Steel Beasts to War Thunder - can get into a T-55 with a couple of friends, drive to the firing point, load the main armament and hit the target with the right type of shell? It's not that it's impossible to do, but that there's a long path from "can be coached through it by someone experienced, in a safe training environment" to "can react instinctively - and correctly - in a combat situation to fight and win" - and there's rather more experience around of folk who've operated tanks, than submarines, who might be available and willing for hire.

There's also the issue that the "old SSK" is basically one step on from WW2, and several generations behind modern opposition if push comes to shove. For the tank comparison, a T-55 with a telescopic sight for the gunner and some decent binos for the commander (maybe active IR if you're feeling generous, or just a big searchlight if not), is going to be at a disadvantage against opponents with thermal imaging and a feed from GMTI radar, and may find itself exploding before ever realising it had been seen and engaged: similar issues at sea. The newer and better it is, and the more spent on modernising and updating it, the less likely you are to be able to take it without a fight.

Like a tank, it runs on motion potion, which is finite and has to be replenished: either you've got a port where you can moor alongside (and cope with the bemused audience wondering why there's a strange submarine fuelling up and Intstagramming it to the world) or you're getting baroque with a mother ship replenishing you out at sea - possible but you need the ship and to be able to RAS, it's not an easy or simple exercise. (And while you refuel on a weekly not daily basis, you still need to keep 50-70 crew fed, or prioritise who gets eaten first when you resort to cannibalism...) Submarines in general, like tanks in civilised countries, are rare and attract attention: again, turn up at a Shell station and start pumping diesel into a T-55 and see how inconspicuous and discreet you manage to be.

That's why rescuing an old piece of kit from the breakers' yard or stealing it from North Korea isn't the "easy win" card sometimes suggested.

 

[PhotEx]

Just for fun/completeness, I am going to post this here:

@PhotEx may not like this.

Netherlands joining in CSG21 deployment

.....from the North Atlantic, through to the Mediterranean, Indian Ocean and on to the Indo-Pacific. The strike group will undertake a range of operations and training with allies and partners, including maritime missions with NATO in the Mediterranean and Coalition operations in the Middle East.

why would I be upset a Dutch FFG we’ve known for months was jointing CSG21 was joining CSG21? It’s almost as of the Netherlands has Geo-political interests in South East Asia too.

And whats the North Atlantic got to do with the price of fish in the Far East on a deployment that’s got diddly to do with NATO and everything to do with putting down a marker in the Asia Pacific region?
what’s that? In the 60’s, the South China Sea was a standing RN carrier deployment and it’s all a bit back to the future?
you can highlight in black every mention you Google of North Atlantic, Medditeranean and NATO, but QE will not be forming an ASW task group hunting your bogeyman Russian submarines in WWII, Wolfpack Redux.

There’s a big world outside your North Atlantic obsession.

 

[TamH70]

Wah shield up, assuming this is semi-serious...

Putting it in LAND terms, a partial translation is "if terrorists from Fumbuckistan manage to get hold of a T-55 tank, then with a mercenary crew it can drive around laying waste to whole continents because nobody knows how to deal with it or destroy it, it's an unstoppable way to win".

One difference being that a tank needs three or four crew, an old Romeo-class SSK needs ten times that many; and the skill level required is higher, with a much greater penalty for errors and failures (most - not all - problems with an old tank tend to involve it stopping and refusing to move, or bits breaking, rather than all the crew dying in a single awful incident). There are other technical issues why operating submarines is difficult, and operating someone else's submarine is really difficult - just down to the extra size and complexity and the issue of operating under, rather than on, the water (because being surfaced means you're visible and therefore compromised).

How many people - even if they've played everything from M1 Tank Platoon to Steel Beasts to War Thunder - can get into a T-55 with a couple of friends, drive to the firing point, load the main armament and hit the target with the right type of shell? It's not that it's impossible to do, but that there's a long path from "can be coached through it by someone experienced, in a safe training environment" to "can react instinctively - and correctly - in a combat situation to fight and win" - and there's rather more experience around of folk who've operated tanks, than submarines, who might be available and willing for hire.

There's also the issue that the "old SSK" is basically one step on from WW2, and several generations behind modern opposition if push comes to shove. For the tank comparison, a T-55 with a telescopic sight for the gunner and some decent binos for the commander (maybe active IR if you're feeling generous, or just a big searchlight if not), is going to be at a disadvantage against opponents with thermal imaging and a feed from GMTI radar, and may find itself exploding before ever realising it had been seen and engaged: similar issues at sea. The newer and better it is, and the more spent on modernising and updating it, the less likely you are to be able to take it without a fight.

Like a tank, it runs on motion potion, which is finite and has to be replenished: either you've got a port where you can moor alongside (and cope with the bemused audience wondering why there's a strange submarine fuelling up and Intstagramming it to the world) or you're getting baroque with a mother ship replenishing you out at sea - possible but you need the ship and to be able to RAS, it's not an easy or simple exercise. (And while you refuel on a weekly not daily basis, you still need to keep 50-70 crew fed, or prioritise who gets eaten first when you resort to cannibalism...) Submarines in general, like tanks in civilised countries, are rare and attract attention: again, turn up at a Shell station and start pumping diesel into a T-55 and see how inconspicuous and discreet you manage to be.

That's why rescuing an old piece of kit from the breakers' yard or stealing it from North Korea isn't the "easy win" card sometimes suggested.

What about an Improved Kilo, or even better, a Lada-class sub? The Chinese have the first of those named subs, and they're currently giving the US kittens in the Taiwan Strait because they'd be dashed useful in preventing the Americans from landing any reinforcements by sea if the Chinese ever decided to bring their rebellious province back under the heel.

They won't give a stuff about them getting sunk as long as they smack a US carrier group or two around quite a bit.

 

[PhotEx]

What about an Improved Kilo, or even better, a Lada-class sub? The Chinese have the first of those named subs, and they're currently giving the US kittens in the Taiwan Strait because they'd be dashed useful in preventing the Americans from landing any reinforcements by sea if the Chinese ever decided to bring their rebellious province back under the heel.

They won't give a stuff about them getting sunk as long as they smack a US carrier group or two around quite a bit.

ah the Taiwan Straits, or Formosa Straits as it was know in the last fistycuffs were submarines figured highly in the proceedings. It proved to be a rather unideal place for submarines to play.

 

[Yokel]

why would I be upset a Dutch FFG we’ve known for months was jointing CSG21 was joining CSG21? It’s almost as of the Netherlands has Geo-political interests in South East Asia too.

And whats the North Atlantic got to do with the price of fish in the Far East on a deployment that’s got diddly to do with NATO and everything to do with putting down a marker in the Asia Pacific region?
what’s that? In the 60’s, the South China Sea was a standing RN carrier deployment and it’s all a bit back to the future?
you can highlight in black every mention you Google of North Atlantic, Medditeranean and NATO, but QE will not be forming an ASW task group hunting your bogeyman Russian submarines in WWII, Wolfpack Redux.

There’s a big world outside your North Atlantic obsession.

Diddly squat to do with NATO, yet MOD flagged up 'maritime missions with NATO in the Mediterranean'? Wait and see I guess. Where do you think the main effort of our armed forces should be? HMG thinks in should be in the NATO theatre.

What about an Improved Kilo, or even better, a Lada-class sub? The Chinese have the first of those named subs, and they're currently giving the US kittens in the Taiwan Strait because they'd be dashed useful in preventing the Americans from landing any reinforcements by sea if the Chinese ever decided to bring their rebellious province back under the heel.

They won't give a stuff about them getting sunk as long as they smack a US carrier group or two around quite a bit.

I understand that the major Navies pay a lot of attention to ASW.

There was a reason I stepped back from this thread...

 

[PhotEx]

Diddly squat to do with NATO, yet MOD flagged up 'maritime missions with NATO in the Mediterranean'. Wait and see I guess.



I understand that the major Navies pay a lot of attention to ASW.

There was a reason I stepped back from this thread...

yes, im sure we are in desperate need of exercising en passim with that major Medditeranean military colossus, Cyprus. Waving politely at the locals as you head East isn’t a vital mission.
The Med is so ‘vital’ we’ve committed the grand total of an OPV to keeping a jaunty nautical eye on it.

ASW?
and back to your favourite old saw. How much extra spending did the Review put into ASW?