Army ‘to be cut by 20,000’ if No 10 plan is approved

But again the main point flies past photex head - Because he deliberatly ignores it as it doesnt support the officer fick donkey - if not all about looking good on horses we would have a billion challengers narrative

Change or remove public duties and the money goes with it

It will achieve nothing - it will simply move that piece of the budget elsewhere - it will not buy a single ship sailor boot or bullet - it will be removed from defence.
Isn't that what's happening with all the money saved by the other mooted cuts?

Yes,if the army just wanted to cut X so it could spend that saving on Y instead then that probably wouldn't work with public duties (see also RN & CASD). But that is not the situation, they have been told to cut their budget by (worst case?) 5% so, removing public duties and loosing the money that goes with it seems worth putting on the table. If HMG then comes back with a big "No, you must do PD" then the Army has get-out-of-jail-free card the next time a select committee asks "why do you have more horses than tanks"
 
, removing public duties and loosing the money that goes with it seems worth putting on the table. If HMG then comes back with a big "No, you must do PD" then the Army has get-out-of-jail-free card the next time a select committee asks "why do you have more horses than tanks"
I agree

But i do wonder if they can offer up PD or whether its that relevant in a cost context -
If the regiments doing PD are still going to be knocking about doing security - then by removing the role and making it purely ceremonial are you going to increase costs because now youre paying 2 lots of manpower -admittadly it may come from a new budget but thats lass a cut more a transfer.

A far more practical cost reduction could be returning to 1st to 5th Foot guards and thus only one bloody uniform for the lot.
 
And strong armed into giving them back, not, by the threat of Heavy Armoured Brigades, but by ships full of rough men with ‘taches and planes arriving off said rocks with ill intent.

exhibit A M’Lud..... the first time British Sovereign territory had been assailed by Jonathan Foreigner Esq since 1940, and the then much larger Army was not the answer.
We didn't have the fixed wing assets to fight the war properly, and we lacked the rotary wing platforms and escorts to deliver airlift into theatre without employing unsuitable civilian vessels. Consequently a significant portion of the logistic work was done by one CH-47 working it's Betty Swollocks off. Most of the escort vessels were using 1950's systems (seacat , seaslug) to counter a 1970's threat (exocet) that we knew all about because we had bought it. The 1970's systems we had bought (Seawolf Seadart) were compromised by a failure to pursue VLMS despite early attempts. Both systems were further compromised by refusal to fund radar systems with full capability against sea-skimming targets even though we ourselves had bought a sea skimming system and the French are well known for their propensity to sell their own grand-mere's for two sous and a shot of Pernod.

We had neglected RAF long range operations, we should have been on Vulcan/Victor B3/4 with extended range, improved mission systems, and stand off weapons. Stuff that would have been invaluable in GW1 and 2.

Were we to do the ground phase of Corporate again we would have taken every CVR(T) that could be rendered serviceable. Their fire support, logistics support, Night vision and comms capabilities were invaluable.

The failing much larger Army managed to supply two Para battalions to bring 3 CMDO brigade to operational strength, and 5 Infantry Brigade while still managing to deploy :
17,100 troops to Op Banner
55000 Troops to BAOR
1500 Troops to Belize
UNFICYP in cyprus
Plus other world wide commitments.

We dawdled over tracked Rapier which could have had an early effect in securing San Carlos water. We also had to relearn that it's a good idea for boots to keep a soldiers feet dry. Finally the whole thing was only necessary because the political leadership took it's eye off the ball and neither reinforced the position to deter aggression or negotiated a settlement. In short we overcame this challenge because we had sufficiently large services with years of varied operational experience, used to making do in the face of penny pinching and strategic carelessness. Had we a small tight focused military organised for short duration surprise parties we would have been phucked like a back street Bangkok ladyboy....
 
Are you including ACF and CCF to get to those numbers? At the time I thought we were under half that, and had enough problems getting the numbers for the guard roster with what remained.

You might recall that we went to GW1 in 1991 and had a bit of a problem scraping together two brigades and had to cannibalise everything from the rest of the army to do that!
14 Sigs pinched 2 x landrovers from Garat's Hay.

Including the one fitted for a snow plough blade.

Hence the guard having to shovel snow from road to gate by hand, the poor buggers. This having carried the snowplough blade, through the snow, from a storage shed by the Officers Mess to the MT, at which point it was found black nasty won't work on a non-snowplough-attachment-adapted LR.
 
We didn't have the fixed wing assets to fight the war properly, and we lacked the rotary wing platforms and escorts to deliver airlift into theatre without employing unsuitable civilian vessels. Consequently a significant portion of the logistic work was done by one CH-47 working it's Betty Swollocks off. Most of the escort vessels were using 1950's systems (seacat , seaslug) to counter a 1970's threat (exocet) that we knew all about because we had bought it. The 1970's systems we had bought (Seawolf Seadart) were compromised by a failure to pursue VLMS despite early attempts. Both systems were further compromised by refusal to fund radar systems with full capability against sea-skimming targets even though we ourselves had bought a sea skimming system and the French are well known for their propensity to sell their own grand-mere's for two sous and a shot of Pernod.

We had neglected RAF long range operations, we should have been on Vulcan/Victor B3/4 with extended range, improved mission systems, and stand off weapons. Stuff that would have been invaluable in GW1 and 2.

Were we to do the ground phase of Corporate again we would have taken every CVR(T) that could be rendered serviceable. Their fire support, logistics support, Night vision and comms capabilities were invaluable.

The failing much larger Army managed to supply two Para battalions to bring 3 CMDO brigade to operational strength, and 5 Infantry Brigade while still managing to deploy :
17,100 troops to Op Banner
55000 Troops to BAOR
1500 Troops to Belize
UNFICYP in cyprus
Plus other world wide commitments.

We dawdled over tracked Rapier which could have had an early effect in securing San Carlos water. We also had to relearn that it's a good idea for boots to keep a soldiers feet dry. Finally the whole thing was only necessary because the political leadership took it's eye off the ball and neither reinforced the position to deter aggression or negotiated a settlement. In short we overcame this challenge because we had sufficiently large services with years of varied operational experience, used to making do in the face of penny pinching and strategic carelessness. Had we a small tight focused military organised for short duration surprise parties we would have been phucked like a back street Bangkok ladyboy....

I just re-read Hitler Hastings's Falklands book. The main trigger for the Junta's green light was the announced withdrawal of Endurance.


Another poster recommended the very niche The Silent Listeners by Maj. Thorpe, Int. Corps, which details the work done in EW terms by the tiny STD cell during the FI conflict. This was effectively a bunch of enthusiasts, massively under resourced, slotting in any old how to a structure incapable of using them properly.

But at least they were there.[/I]
 
Its not as if it was really obtained like that anyway
India - the East India company conquered bits in pitched battles, against both well equipped native forces and European powers gained others through treaty or applying pressure. It became part of Empire when it was decided the EIC was ballsing it up.

Americas, NZ, Oz - taken by colonisation rather than force of arms

Various locations from UK to India - deep water ports and trade deals with locals who we then propped up against enemies
Effectively the empire was one of vassal states rather than conquest.

When the Army was launched at foreign shores it was not as a raiding force but one intended to win a campaign.

In fact the whole raiding thing pre WW2 and commandoes was pretty much limited to RN ships sailing into French ports and destroying the seasoned wood stocks. Unless you go back to Agincourt and further - where the English used to land in France and make a protracted nuisance of themselves until the French paid them to bugger off or brought them to battle - but im not sure as i would compare a chevauchee with - commando raids

As such a small(ish) army based around the ability to overwhelm a threat to an ally or fight a peers expeditionary forces abroad is rather closer to Britains historic position.

There may be a case there for employing a much lighter MBT etc - but not so much i feel for scrapping heavy metal and orientating the British army to counter insurgencies in the 3rd world
Agree ish but we relied on technological superiority in the Americas, Oz, NZ, India and Africa - we beat the local chief before propping him up more often than not. Look in any county cathedral at the plaques, memorials and laid up colours. Hence the Belloc allusion.

They became vassal states following conquest, it was why we did Empire so well. Beating them and then letting them run the show.

Which is all history, now, if we want to play with our allies in our own backyard then we need armour, and all that goes with it. Whether we're prepared to make the investment or not is another question.
 
I just re-read Hitler Hastings's Falklands book. The main trigger for the Junta's green light was the announced withdrawal of Endurance.


Another poster recommended the very niche The Silent Listeners by Maj. Thorpe, Int. Corps, which details the work done in EW terms by the tiny STD cell during the FI conflict. This was effectively a bunch of enthusiasts, massively under resourced, slotting in any old how to a structure incapable of using them properly.

But at least they were there.[/I]
Cue conspiraloon theories about INT Corps nasty tricks spreading STD’s. :)
 
Is the Atlas supposed to replace the Hercules?
Originally - Yes No Sort of - it would have replaced half* the Ks the other half having been replaced by the C130J - resulting in a fleet of 25*Js and 25* A400s

Then yes a planned fleet of 20 odd A400 and 8 C17
Then no as the planned fleet now included the retention of 14 xC130J-30**

Currently i think its a yes no possibly probably not

*Circa, around, about lest individuals take all figures as absolutes and ignore any changes over time
**Laterly 13 -30s and a short following an unfortunate landing incident
 

WhiskeyTango

Old-Salt
As a serving officer in the infantry, im interested in how this will pan out. I have two concerns; the dudes and myself.

There will inevitably be a reduction in manpower and they will be looking at quite specific people to get rid off. I'll be ensuring that all who want to stay have signed on for as long as possible. LCpls approaching 12 years need to be in a position to promote soonest if they don't want axed.

Some people will no doubt take the opportunity for voluntary redundancy, but i imagine the civvy job market won't be great in the next few years. Careful consideration to resettlement must be taken.

Also, shot across the bows for all of us to consider our financial health. Is that new kitchen, car or jetski worth buying right now? Particularly on some finance scheme..

For me, i think it's time to evaluate what the army wants it's leaders to have in terms of experience. I suspect operational tours will count for more than "that crunchy desk job" when it comes to avoiding redundancy at the slimmer end of the promotion triangle
 
No petulant tantrum here - some exasperation becasue I do appear to have made the mistake of engaging you as if you were an adult - in hindsight i should have known better after all

Personally id be happy for ceremonial to become just that and not a military task - as ever though much like the not at all missed Jeneral 28 who applies much the same logic as yourself - you equate disagreeing with your justification for ditching something as unequivocal support for it.
In otherwords agree with photex or face the strawman of doom the bolded being a case in point you are destroying a position ive never presented.

All services shit if anything the bought isnt of US manufacture

Tanks shit Replace with AH64, Army thick for keeping tanks -
Army thick for not investing in tanks,
Army thick for investing in tanks
Army thick still doing ceremonial - ( A task its given) Nope still thick for doing given task


Navy shit buying crap engine ( wasnt their choice) nope still shit as crap engine
Navy shit buying European PAAMS
Navy shit no gun on Rivers - adding a gun = top tier credible warship
Navy shit T31 has little more than a gun = no use glorified OPV


Airforce Shit -repeat myths ad nauseum until @Archimedes and MM despair and give up presenting you with referenced facts.
Typhoon Crap etc
A400M crap uses composites C130J* far superior = Airforce shit.

Landrover crap -
New defender crap
New defender van laughable no market - point out direct competitor - new defender van laughable saturated market
New defender crap has pointless off road cameras. Value explained to you - youre response stick head out of window - flaw pointed out in that plan - response landrover crap and post picture of crv on a gravel track.


In every case you demonstrate a lack of knowledge and
A) cling to an untenable position or change user IDs
B) Do a complete 180 and adopt one thats become more fashionable (ie tanks although in fairness thats now a either a 360 or 540)
c) In an effort to prove admirals generals crap you will (as per T31 OPV) argue 2 opposite positions for the same piece of equipment -

I think its time that i did as many others have and placed you in the treat as Spider box


* The thing here is whilst MM has raised some valid issues regarding the A400M which Photex parrots a lot of his claims - such as the shit composite structure A400M vs good metal C130J are actually the same arguments I heard 20 years ago when the composite** C130J entered service particularly regarding Paradrops and SF use.


**Yes thats right theres composites on the C130J
Let the rage flow through you, that’s the spirit.
its exactly how Dom acts BTW, gets people into a frothing rage, then does what he wills while the disengaged are all biting chunks out of the carpets a d desks.

despite the rage of the kakhi contingent, it really does look like lots of their sacred elephants are going to be put down this time.
 
Let the rage flow through you, that’s the spirit.
its exactly how Dom acts BTW, gets people into a frothing rage, then does what he wills while the disengaged are all biting chunks out of the carpets a d desks.

despite the rage of the kakhi contingent, it really does look like lots of their sacred elephants are going to be put down this time.
Is that before or after the MV22 and M1A3 enter service.

As for those sacred elephants - would that be the cap badges that politicians sensitive to public opinion have hamstrung land into preserving

Or the Public duties task thats been given to land

Or the regiments of armour that land are a hidebound bunch of ******* for keeping - because they are stupidly equipping to the Government mandated requirement to generate an armoured division.

Which of those sacred cows the existence of which is a result of what the government says land must do are going to be ripped from land.

In your efforts to appear insightful you fail to grasp the difference between - cock ups lands made in equipping itself to meet requirements

Types of equipment (regardless of dodgy choices) needed to fulfil that requirement

Political constraints placed on the services with respect to units and basing.

Instead you dismiss everything with - the army can do whatever it wants - it operates entirely in a vacuum


Is your real name Lewis Page perchance



Incidentally you again confuse anger with exasperation and disappointment
 

Caecilius

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
despite the rage of the kakhi contingent, it really does look like lots of their sacred elephants are going to be put down this time.
I'm sure I'll regret asking, but this assesment is based on...what? Your own wishful thinking?
 
Which of those sacred cows the existence of which is a result of what the government says land must do are going to be ripped from land.
I don't think you will find that:

1. The Government has not mandated Land to generate an Armoured Division as they are not doing that.
2. The Government does not dictate minutiae such as units and basing.

The problem the Army faces is it doesn't have a clue what it is for. When asked the responses will be along the lines of 'to fight all comers, at all levels anywhere in the world and to do this we need lots of money, lots and lots of money'.

The RN have been intensively pushing their purpose and role (no matter how fanciful) and if these rumoured cuts come about are likely to survive without too much pain although it is likely the RM and Carrier Strike will be rented out to the USMC for the foreseeable future.

Seems the RAF are playing the long game and are confident of their place in the scheme of things.

The Army on the other hand ...........................................................................
 
Another poster recommended the very niche The Silent Listeners by Maj. Thorpe, Int. Corps, which details the work done in EW terms by the tiny STD cell during the FI conflict.
He musta said some very nice things about it - fvcking price of it has gone through the roof!!

Over a tenner for a Kindle edition!

I shall have to call my broker, and take out a mortgage on a copy.​
 
Life’s getting interesting in the Far East, the Americans have 2 Carrier Strike Groups out there at the mo annoying the Chinese, next year, the RN and RAF will be able to join that party tweaking the Party’s tail.... wither then the Army?
 

Latest Threads

Top