Argentine Air Power

Mike Barton

War Hero
India must admit not heard that one before. But Indonesia since it was formed and up until recently would swallow up every island nation it could. The Aussies were worried for a good reason. The reason they got Subs, certainly weren't for defence.
I understand the general feeling that Indonesia is somehow a threat to Australia but it really is paranoid nonsense. Indonesia has never threatened Australia and with the best will in the world the Indonesian armed forces could barely organise a five-a-side football match if you booked the court a month in advance, provided a ball and even give them ten men to make up each team.

The idea of the threat that Indonesia somehow poses to Australia comes from military interventions that happened decades ago and which had nothing to do with Australia. To give Indonesia its due, it has been involved in a lot fewer wars in the past half century than Australia has. The myth of the sabre-rattling Indonesian menace, massing to the north of Australia, ready to pounce at a moment's notice is nothing more than that, a myth.

Trust me, Indonesia is not now, nor ever in the future, about to invade Australia.
 

Mike Barton

War Hero
Seem to recall similar pronouncements regarding a Latin American Nation and a Small wet Windswept Archipegilo.
No similarity whatsoever.

For almost two centuries the Argentines had been screaming blue murder about how they wanted to retake the Falklands, the kids were taught about it in school, the officer corps of the Argentine military toasted the day they would reclaim "Las Malvinas", on several occasions they got uppity and the UK had to deploy forces to deter them. The signals were there loud and clear from the beginning that things could cut up rough between the UK and Argentina over the Falklands.

No such threat has ever at any time existed between Australia and Indonesia, there is no lingering territorial dispute, no border clashes, no history of conflict. Nothing.

If there is a threat from knackered out old Indonesia to First-World, high-tech Australia, it exists entirely in the heads of some deluded Australians because there is absolutely no evidence of it on the Indonesian side.
 
What I said about Indonesia was told to me in the 90's while I was living down under. I suspect the Aussies worries about invasion, stems from the early days of Indonesia in the 50s.
 
No similarity whatsoever.

For almost two centuries the Argentines had been screaming blue murder about how they wanted to retake the Falklands, the kids were taught about it in school, the officer corps of the Argentine military toasted the day they would reclaim "Las Malvinas", on several occasions they got uppity and the UK had to deploy forces to deter them. The signals were there loud and clear from the beginning that things could cut up rough between the UK and Argentina over the Falklands.

No such threat has ever at any time existed between Australia and Indonesia, there is no lingering territorial dispute, no border clashes, no history of conflict. Nothing.

If there is a threat from knackered out old Indonesia to First-World, high-tech Australia, it exists entirely in the heads of some deluded Australians because there is absolutely no evidence of it on the Indonesian side.
Agreed, but let’s not forget perception- this wasn’t necessarily how it appeared in the late 1950s and early 60s. The Indonesians got hold of Tu-16s, were showing signs of expansionism (albeit they would say that they were simply absorbing or seeking to absorb what was rightfully Indonesian territory) and that led to concerns about their intentions particularly at the start of the 60s. It was why the F-111 was purchased, so as to be able to have the range to attach Jakarta.

Aussie troops also participated in the Confrontation, and the RAAF presence at Butterworth was partly directed against possible Indonesian aggression as well. I’d suggest that the issue was one of Australia seeing itself dragged into a regional conflict as the result of Sukarno’s approach to regional affairs, and thus at risk of attack as a result of ending up on the side opposing Indonesia rather than a collective outbreak of irrational fear. But such concerns have legacies, one of which is a continuing concern that abandoning capabilities, or assuming that all will be well in a nation which has proven open to instability and difficult-to-read, military-leaning/militarist/military leadership is a risky step, hence the fact that a wary, just-in-case approach was adopted, and East Timor seemed to suggest that this might be wise...
 

Mike Barton

War Hero
Agreed, but let’s not forget perception- this wasn’t necessarily how it appeared in the late 1950s and early 60s. The Indonesians got hold of Tu-16s, were showing signs of expansionism (albeit they would say that they were simply absorbing or seeking to absorb what was rightfully Indonesian territory) and that led to concerns about their intentions particularly at the start of the 60s. It was why the F-111 was purchased, so as to be able to have the range to attach Jakarta.

Aussie troops also participated in the Confrontation, and the RAAF presence at Butterworth was partly directed against possible Indonesian aggression as well. I’d suggest that the issue was one of Australia seeing itself dragged into a regional conflict as the result of Sukarno’s approach to regional affairs, and thus at risk of attack as a result of ending up on the side opposing Indonesia rather than a collective outbreak of irrational fear. But such concerns have legacies, one of which is a continuing concern that abandoning capabilities, or assuming that all will be well in a nation which has proven open to instability and difficult-to-read, military-leaning/militarist/military leadership is a risky step, hence the fact that a wary, just-in-case approach was adopted, and East Timor seemed to suggest that this might be wise...
Fair enough, I can see that, Indonesia in the 1960s certainly was a different beast to the Indonesia of today. Back then Sukarno had delusions of grandeur with Indonesia strutting the world stage as a regional super power. Such ridiculous notions saw his country slide into economic collapse and his eventual ouster. Although in fairness he never threatened Australia, but sure, things were different back then, over half a century ago.

But anyone today in Australia who would fear the military threat from Indonesia probably needs to sleep with the light on at night and check under his bed for bogeymen because poor old, clapped out Indonesia is no threat to anyone other than Papuan tribesmen armed with bows and arrows.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Slightly off thread but Pedro has raided his piggy bank and purchased four surplus US N P-3C's. Not much of a Falklands threat I would say!

How surplus would they be, can they be flown and are they serviceable because you can guarantee within a year they will have three donor aircraft and one struggling to stay airborne for an hour!
 
How surplus would they be, can they be flown and are they serviceable because you can guarantee within a year they will have three donor aircraft and one struggling to stay airborne for an hour!
Some interesting comments to the UK Defence Journal article.
 
Slightly off thread but Pedro has raided his piggy bank and purchased four surplus US N P-3C's. Not much of a Falklands threat I would say!

You say that - but if one flew low towards the Islands then when detected declared an emergency it could wait until the last minute then fire a harpoon into the aircraft hangers then land and block the runway - whereupon it disgorges 300 commandoes who wreak havoc - whilst awaiting an argentine division 30 mins behind in a dozen hercs.
 
You say that - but if one flew low towards the Islands then when detected declared an emergency it could wait until the last minute then fire a harpoon into the aircraft hangers then land and block the runway - whereupon it disgorges 300 commandoes who wreak havoc - whilst awaiting an argentine division 30 mins behind in a dozen hercs.
Would make an excellent comic movie.
 
You say that - but if one flew low towards the Islands then when detected declared an emergency it could wait until the last minute then fire a harpoon into the aircraft hangers then land and block the runway - whereupon it disgorges 300 commandoes who wreak havoc - whilst awaiting an argentine division 30 mins behind in a dozen hercs.
How did you get hold of the Argentinian war plan?
 
How did you get hold of the Argentinian war plan?
I cannot lie T'was Spider who developed this basis of this plan, although the original was a commercial airliner diverting.

Plan B was landing commandoes with Mortars at Mare Harbour and moving overnight into position to suppress the airfield with fire until the hercs arrived.
5 - 10 miles is a piece of piss even with the weight is doable in 3 or 4 hours by fit men - - None of this bollox about arduous terrain trebling that and no need to move covertly - the garrison at Mount Pleasant just lazes about -
 
Fair enough, I can see that, Indonesia in the 1960s certainly was a different beast to the Indonesia of today. Back then Sukarno had delusions of grandeur with Indonesia strutting the world stage as a regional super power. Such ridiculous notions saw his country slide into economic collapse and his eventual ouster. Although in fairness he never threatened Australia, but sure, things were different back then, over half a century ago.

But anyone today in Australia who would fear the military threat from Indonesia probably needs to sleep with the light on at night and check under his bed for bogeymen because poor old, clapped out Indonesia is no threat to anyone other than Papuan tribesmen armed with bows and arrows.
.

Humbly Disagree. Not only Australia but Singapore and Malaysia are wary of the Indons.
Malaysians have quite a few troops stationed in Sarawak and Sabah to cover just in case scenarios. Singapore trains for jungle warfare in Brunei and Northern Territories. It also has the ability to launch long range nastiness, all not bad for an island that's the size of the Isle of Wight and heavily built up. It has A330 tankers and AEW / Elint kit that's quite impressive as well as subs. All expensive and invests heavily in national service etc.
Oz has a huge northern coastline which is defensive nightmare and has just over 43000 men in the army regular and reserve. They would rely heavily on the US for defence/offence and hold joint exercises in Shoalwater bay and other garden sunspots.
 

ACAB

LE
I've tweaked the thread title to make it a little broader and to allow me to highlight that Argentina has commenced a programme to re-role it's Pucaras from COIN/light-strike to ISR. This is being achieved via a Fenix upgrade which has seen a single aircraft re-engined and an EO/IR ball with downlink added.

The FAA are hoping that a further 2 Pucaras will be upgraded to Fenix standard to allow its use in border surveillance.

Regards,
MM
Are they covers on the prop blades?? if so, might I enquire why???
 

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