Are we living in a police state????

#1
I have been absolutely horrified by a recent incident which I will explain:

My son, Mad Mac Jnr who is 14 years old has been enduring a term long disagreement with another school pupil, (of the same age and year) and on numerous occasions has, quite sensibly walked away when offered violence to solve the matter. My son finally had enough and punched the other pupil once in a hope that this would end the matter at the conclusion of the school term. The other pupil backed down and he assumed that this would end the matter.

Imagine my surprise when the police came knocking at the door stating that there had been an allegation of assault (sect 47) against Mad Mac Jnr and could I accompany him to the station to take a statement at my convenience. Being a responsible parent I agreed.

My surprise turned to one of indignation when on arrival at the police station he was formally arrested. I stated that he was at the station voluntarily under my supervision to give a statement. I was told that under the new SOCO powers arrest is now automatic and that he would be duly processed for fingerprints and DNA profiling.

I objected to the DNA sample being taken for the following reasons:

Keeping innocent people's DNA profiles on a Database permanently is an infringement of fundamental human rights.

Keeping DNA permanently from people convicted of minor offences is excessive. There is no reason to think you might go on to commit the type of crime where DNA evidence might be relevant.

I was concerned that permanent retention of this record might lead to Mad Mac Jnr being unfairly refused a job or visa in the future, or that it will be used to undermine his privacy, for example by investigating who he is related to.

The database is being used for research purposes. Under the Human Tissue Act I should have to give my consent to genetic research and it is wrong to remove my right to refuse to take part in controversial research.

I was not aware that private companies and others would be given access to the NDNAD for genetic research and I have not given my consent to this.

I was told that the new laws stated that parental consent was not required if someone was placed under arrest even if the subsequent allegations were proved false and the data obtained would be kept permanently on file.

I explained to the police that whilst I did not condone Mad Mac Jnrs actions I had a degree of sympathy with him and admired his self control. (when I was younger one punch was oft not enough to reinforce your point and on occasions our friendly school gym master used to issue the arguing pair with a pair of 16oz boxing gloves for an impromptu boxing match which resolved any differences and provided some damn fine entertainment for both teachers and pupils).

I explained that this was a "schoolyard scuffle" and to carry out these procedures was oppresive and draconian. I pointed out to police that my parental justice would be ten times worse than anything the state could impose. The police were sympathetic and totally agreed with my point of view but also stated off the record that there hands were tied and they must be seen to carry out governmental policy with swift youth justice.

I have been incensed to read similar incidents links as follows:

DNA Taken

I have also read a case of a 10 year old girl cited for criminal damage for chalking a hopscotch on tarmac. Can`t find the link though.

Not only are we in danger of crimanalising an entire generation, but I have severe reservations about all the sh*tholes in the world we have all served to impose our ideals of democracy only to find out that the very country which we fight for has in my abscence turned into a police state. These new laws were imposed to aid the war on terrorism. That is obviously not the case and these laws are being abused by the Government and the police.

I was also under the impression that a democracy was "police by consent".

Welcome to the police state, where all the populations DNA profiles will at some stage be collected for litter dropping/motoring offences. I seem to remember someone`s post script stating " Someone should tell T Bliar that George Orwells novel "1984" was a fictional novel and not an instruction manual. The future populations DNA information is currently being collected on a non conscensual basis and by stealth.l

I am currently writing to my MP and also the Chief Constable expressing my concerns on abuse of power.

I would be interested to hear of other ARRSERS experiences and views on this sad politically correct society.

From an enraged but responsible parent. Rant over until I take on the Government.
 
#3
If you vote Labour this is what you get.

Murderers and rapists set free - school boys fighting arrested.
 
#4
johnny said:
If you vote Labour this is what you get.

Murderers and rapists set free - school boys fighting arrested.

So true. We voted for the government that we got. Time to stop the bitching and do something about it at the next election. :lol:

Tony & Cherie........I have Pickfords number if you are interested :?


fastmedic
 
#5
mark1234 said:
Your son commited assault, and was arrested, deal with it
Whilst I advised my son to admit to the crime, before you point out your simplistic views there was extreme provocation and mitigating circumstances involved. The subsequent charge was dropped to Sect 39 "common assault" which may be proved without physically touching anyone. (Blowing on someone may constitute common assault).

My concern if you had read my post in its entirety was over stealth collection of DNA and abuse of police power.

I will NOT get over it and by remaining silent is giving a tacit approval for this abuse of power to continue.

I guess you never had a schoolyard scuffle, walked across farmers fields committing trepass, or "apple scrumped" as a kid thereby committing theft. If you are honest with yourself we have all committed childhood misdemeanours but were never criminalised for it.

If this does not apply to you then I apologise, I have obviously missed the "Saviours" second coming.
 
#6
fastmedic said:
johnny said:
If you vote Labour this is what you get.

Murderers and rapists set free - school boys fighting arrested.

So true. We voted for the government that we got. Time to stop the bitching and do something about it at the next election. :lol:

Tony & Cherie........I have Pickfords number if you are interested :?


fastmedic

Totally agree fastmedic. How can a government expect parents to take more accountability and responsibility for thier offsprings actions in one breath and then take away parental responsibilty and consent in the next.

NEVER HAD MY VOTE AND NEVER WILL.
 
#7
whilst i applaud you for getting your son to stand up for his actions a crime is a crime, just because others get away with much worse doesnt mean what your son did is ok

im not saying i havent done worse (i have), but if you get caught out i cant see how you can complain

as with the collection of dna etc, its done for a reason, if you dont do anything wrong you have nothing to fear, the taking of DNA has solved many assaults, rapes, murders

how would you feel if the shoe wereon the other foot and someone had belted your lad, im sure he would tell his dad he was provoked too

the problem is that nowdays schoolboys fighting can mean a lot worse than it did 20yrs ago, and police need to take it seriously, and we moan when they dont
 
#8
mark1234 said:
whilst i applaud you for getting your son to stand up for his actions a crime is a crime, just because others get away with much worse doesnt mean what your son did is ok

im not saying i havent done worse (i have), but if you get caught out i cant see how you can complain

as with the collection of dna etc, its done for a reason, if you dont do anything wrong you have nothing to fear, the taking of DNA has solved many assaults, rapes, murders
Have you read my post!!!!

My son has been indoctrinated with a sense of discipline and accountability and was man enough to own up to his actions. I applaud that as any responsible parent would.

Chastisement by me was not a course of action to be followed in this case, as personally I agreed with his actions and the level of response which was taken. Being a responsible parent, I condemned his actions whilst secretly agreeing with his response. (The lad in question was not injured badly, merely suffering a minor bruise to the forehead contributed by one single punch).

If you are not concerned about your DNA being taken that is your opinion. For human tissue to be used in genetic testing without consent causes me great distress.

This government has already alluded to insertion of satnav microchips in cars enabling authorities to calculate time distance and speed over your set route (tracked by GPS Sat Nav) and establishment of automatic fines if speed limits are exceeded.

What next, biometric id cards are on the menu, perhaps microchipping of your newborn prior to birth certification to allow for sat nav tracking and identification.

If you are happy to live in this sort of society, please vote for the current government.

Personally, I would rather have what little degree of personal privacy is available now. This is not sensationalism, but your civil liberties are being eroded drastically with the excuse that this is to fight terrorism.

I may be cynical here, but why were these powers not established in the light of the threat from PIRA.

I feel there is a hidden agenda here.

As a post script I am not a lefty liberal but have served in all current operational theatres and have a full 22 year career behind me.
 
#9
mad_mac said:
Have you read my post!!!!

My son has been indoctrinated with a sense of discipline and accountability and was man enough to own up to his actions. I applaud that as any responsible parent would.

Chastisement by me was not a course of action to be followed in this case, as personally I agreed with his actions and the level of response which was taken. Being a responsible parent, I condemned his actions whilst secretly agreeing with his response. (The lad in question was not injured badly, merely suffering a minor bruise to the forehead contributed by one single punch).

If you are not concerned about your DNA being taken that is your opinion. For human tissue to be used in genetic testing without consent causes me great distress.

This government has already alluded to insertion of satnav microchips in cars enabling authorities to calculate time distance and speed over your set route (tracked by GPS Sat Nav) and establishment of automatic fines if speed limits are exceeded.

What next, biometric id cards are on the menu, perhaps microchipping of your newborn prior to birth certification to allow for sat nav tracking and identification.

If you are happy to live in this sort of society, please vote for the current government.

Personally, I would rather have what little degree of personal privacy is available now. This is not sensationalism, but your civil liberties are being eroded drastically with the excuse that this is to fight terrorism.

I may be cynical here, but why were these powers not established in the light of the threat from PIRA.

I feel there is a hidden agenda here.

As a post script I am not a lefty liberal but have served in all current operational theatres and have a full 22 year career behind me.
In these troubled times, we all too seldom as ourselves the question: When it comes to protecting our children- What Would Mel Gibson Do?

 
#10
mark1234 said:
how would you feel if the shoe wereon the other foot and someone had belted your lad, im sure he would tell his dad he was provoked too

the problem is that nowdays schoolboys fighting can mean a lot worse than it did 20yrs ago, and police need to take it seriously, and we moan when they dont
In answer to this, my lad has been subjected to bullying and has been punched in the past. This has always been dealt with by me or with liaison to the school and has not involved the police.

Unless the attack was serious and sustained enough to cause concerning injury, I have always felt that approaching the other parents and the school was enough to sort it out. This has always been a common sense approach and if this does not work the police are the final resort!!!! I do not class myself as an educated man but as most of this forum has, I have a degree in the "school of hard knocks".

I disagree that fighting is worse than 20 years ago. A punch now had the same effect 20 years ago. The knife culture now has always been in existence. I quote the razor culture in Glasgow, Teddy boys and razor blades in the 50`s and flick knives in the 70`s 80`s.

Communications and media are a lot more effective and established to the great unwashed, nowadays, and the media latch on to certain trends.

I fail to see how assaults are more serious in 2006 than they were in 1986. Police crime rate analysis will support my point of view.
 
#11
crabtastic said:
In these troubled times, we all too seldom as ourselves the question: When it comes to protecting our children- What Would Mel Gibson Do?

Quote some anti semetic rants whilst drunk perhaps!!!!
 
#12
mark1234 said:
as with the collection of dna etc, its done for a reason, if you dont do anything wrong you have nothing to fear, the taking of DNA has solved many assaults, rapes, murders
You miss the point. The basis for democracy is the will of the people. We pay for plod. They should do as we collectively say. They [in theory], like government [again in theory] are our servants. All else is dictatorship.

The other side of your weak argument is 'if I havent done anything wrong why should a public servant be allowed to search/stop/fingerprint/DNA me without proving reasonable cause.

I for one am opposed to the police having these powers.

NB: ACAB.
 
#13
currymunter said:
mark1234 said:
as with the collection of dna etc, its done for a reason, if you dont do anything wrong you have nothing to fear, the taking of DNA has solved many assaults, rapes, murders
You miss the point. The basis for democracy is the will of the people. We pay for plod. They should do as we collectively say. They [in theory], like government [again in theory] are our servants. All else is dictatorship.

The other side of your weak argument is 'if I havent done anything wrong why should a public servant be allowed to search/stop/fingerprint/DNA me without proving reasonable cause.

I for one am opposed to the police having these powers.

NB: ACAB.
I state again.
In a democracy policing is by consent.

I agree with your point currymunter. The powers the police currently have were initially rushed through Parliament with no public debate. These were reinforced and amended in Jan 2006 due to glaring errors contained within the Statutory Instruments.

I for two am opposed to these powers.

Perhaps a question we can all ask ourselves is why are soldiers tried for murder. They are in a war zone which these accusers have no appreciation of, and war fighting has never appeared on thier agenda, whilst at home the police can shoot an innocent man 7 times in the head due to dark skin, ran so must be a terrorist and the head of the Metropolitan Police faces a Health and Safety lawsuit!!!!!!!!!!!

Either the problem lies with our spineless Generals, feathering thier own nests as opposed to protecting thier soldiers they lead, or it lies with current Governmental policy (if you are a soldier or normal civilian you are guilty until proved innocent).

Going slightly off tack but yet again this epitomises the disparity between Joe Bloggs and the current establishment.
 
#14
So the main point of this thread is that some completely random, ordinary soldiers sons DNA details are being held on file for all eternity for a "Charge Sheet", not even a conviction.
Caused by a government that has lost touch with a sense of proportionality and seems to be following the US's lead, these kind of laws sound similar to recent American laws that deal with civil Liberties.
They also seem to be becoming more right wing as every day passes and Well, either lauch a coup...... no didnt think so, not your stile, your better than that, or vote them out the next time and get your message across.

Also, a side effect is that a soldier like all other soldiers is being shafted again, no surprise there lads, to be honest. It isnt fair but get over it. You are never going to receive the honour and respect that you deserve as men and women who have served their country and to be honest, would you have it any other way to a certain extent?

Yes the MoD and general public should support you more when you have your backs to the wall and they are expecting too much and what cant be achieved from you. However you all signed up under the sense of duty and honour that you feel when you do your duty and if you were fully appreciated for what you do, would it be the same.
What every serving soldier and former soldier does or did sets them apart from regular civilians and that is probably part of their motivation to serve. If that feeling was not there, serving and doing your duty would not carry the same weight.
Yes you are under valued and yes you deserve better, but that is not going to happen unfortunately.
 
#15
mad_mac said:
...
I explained that this was a "schoolyard scuffle" and to carry out these procedures was oppresive and draconian. I pointed out to police that my parental justice would be ten times worse than anything the state could impose. The police were sympathetic and totally agreed with my point of view but also stated off the record that there hands were tied and they must be seen to carry out governmental policy with swift youth justice.
...
You want to be careful making statements like that. Next thing you know, you'll be done for child abuse.
 
#16
womble30313 said:
So the main point of this thread is that some completely random, ordinary soldiers sons DNA details are being held on file for all eternity for a "Charge Sheet", not even a conviction.
Caused by a government that has lost touch with a sense of proportionality and seems to be following the US's lead, these kind of laws sound similar to recent American laws that deal with civil Liberties.
They also seem to be becoming more right wing as every day passes and Well, either lauch a coup...... no didnt think so, not your stile, your better than that, or vote them out the next time and get your message across.

Also, a side effect is that a soldier like all other soldiers is being shafted again, no surprise there lads, to be honest. It isnt fair but get over it. You are never going to receive the honour and respect that you deserve as men and women who have served their country and to be honest, would you have it any other way to a certain extent?

Yes the MoD and general public should support you more when you have your backs to the wall and they are expecting too much and what cant be achieved from you. However you all signed up under the sense of duty and honour that you feel when you do your duty and if you were fully appreciated for what you do, would it be the same.
What every serving soldier and former soldier does or did sets them apart from regular civilians and that is probably part of their motivation to serve. If that feeling was not there, serving and doing your duty would not carry the same weight.
Yes you are under valued and yes you deserve better, but that is not going to happen unfortunately.
Womble, this is not a disgruntled parent spouting off. I and 90% of the British Army realise that we are underappreciated.

Before I took this particular thread on, my wife expressed whether I would see this particular issue through.

Knowing that I am a canterous old sh*t she knew that I had another cause to champion, many late nights researching current legislation and writing to Governmental Organisations.

I have taken the MOD on and won in the case of my father (47 years MOD service), consequently this holds no fear to me.

I have seen the practice of "delegation to the point of absolution" carried out within the MOD but this has been no defense.

I am more than happy to try to bring current organisations to account. I explained to my wife earlier that to sit and accept what the Government imposes is not necessarily right.

I will have my say and the fact that we are serving in HM Forces in no way contradicts our freedom of speech.

I have always said that I speak for myself, not for MOD Governmental policy and I look forward to the hits on my firewalll from these organisatons.

I look forward to taking on Governmental organisations as I am horrified by the lack of expertise. human resource skills and the "ability to get the job done" which will further my cause.

I must state that I am in full support of the British Armed Forces Federation to establish some form of accountabilty to our Senior Officers to the troops they lead, only in order that some form of accountability is established.

Looking forward to the firewall hits.
 
#17
I do understand and share the concerns of the poster over her son. It is sometimes said that a Conservative is a Liberal who has just been burgled while a Liberal is a Conservative who has just been arrested. It means, in essence that people rarely become inflamed or have their views hardened until it impacts directly upon them and by the time it does, it is often too late. The tyranny of which this lady expresses a legitimate and reasonably held concern and who now seeks to explore it's extent rarely arrives wearing a fascist uniform to kick in the front door. It generally arrives quietly at the back door and by the time there is a general awareness of the danger, it is often too late to do anything at all. It happens, as the late Dr Martin Luther King once said: "through the tranquilizing drug of 'gradualism'"!

The law which expressly concerns her son is the Criminal Justice Act of 2003 which received Royal assent on 20 November of that Year. It made major amendments to the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, here, as far as is relevant, it allowed the taking of fingerprints and DNA without consent on arrest for any recordable offence and even for the reduction from 18 year to 14 years for compulsory drug testing under the same circumstances. Such material is to be used for speculative searches of the national database for any positive matches in relation to the detection and prevention of crime.

Recent legislative changes have now extinguished the distinction which used to exist under the 1984 Act between 'arrestable' and 'none-arrestable' offences. All recordable offences are now arrestable - even the dropping of litter! The purpose of this change was, among others, to widen further, the material held upon the national database. Britain already has the larges DNA database on the planet.

I would not be sensible to embark upon a detailed taxonomy of the whole range of draconian powers now at the hands of the state since public concern has already been expressed about such issues as compulsory ID cards, and anti-terror laws but much law is enacted out of sight or gaze of a lethargic public who are far more interested in the next episode of 'Neighbours', the 'Big Brother House' and which club Beckham's playing for next.

An anethesized public will not have heard of the Inquiries Act which has subverted any and all inquiries, allowed a Minister whose department is subject to it to set it's terms, choose its chairman, withhold funding if it deviates, to decide which evidence will be disclosed to the public, and finally edit the report if he does not like it! Yet we still hear calls from members of the public for a 'Full Public Inquiry of one form or another since they continue to believe somehow that by holding one, they will actually hear the truth which in their ignorance of the existence of the Act which subverts it's reality, they will never actually hear if one were to be held. They will be unaware of the Bill currently before Parliament allowing any Minister to alter or amend or scrap any law Parliament has enacted without reference to Parliament and allow any Minister the summary judicial powers. They will be unaware too, that the Home Office and Cabinet Office are discussing proposals to overturn the rulings of our judiciary they do not like or find too inconvenient!

Is voting for a different party going to make any difference as some posters have suggested? Hardly! Election manifestos on law and order are generally written in vague terms. It is extremely doubtful that a party would be voted in on a specific manifesto containing the measures I have just described any more than they would have voted Tory if their manifesto has mentioned specifically that they would end the ancient right against self-incrimination or criminalise gypsies by calling them 'New Age Travellers. The public will be generally unaware of what is planned for them until after an election by whichever party wins an election and enact policies which are indistinguishable from each other!

Writing to your MP will make little or no difference at all since MPs are so bound by party discipline that he votes as he is told and dissents if he dares! He is 'voting fodder' for the party whips and exercises little more influence in Parliament than the constituents he ostensibly represents!

The Police themselves are now little more than a Paramilitary branch of the Home Office who now dominate policing policy, set the targets for each force to achieve and as the incident with David Blunkett should have warned, they dominate the Local Police authorities and can get rid of Chief Constables the Home Secretary does not particularly like! You could say, that the Home Secretary is, in reality, the General at the Head of a blue-uniformed Paramilitary army answerable to him!

Are we living in a Police State? That was the question. My answer is that we have walked blindfold into tyranny and live in a democracy that exists in form but not substance. Parliament is a rubber stamp of the executive while general elections are and will shortly become the legalistic 'tinsel' which purports to confer a legitimacy upon a system many people neither know or care they live under until, like this lady poster, it impacts upon their lives directly and they ask a question that was answered two series of 'Neighbours' ago.

Regards and best wishes
Iolis
 
#18
Iolis

Hear hear. When have you ever hard the Associaton of Chief Constables saying to the Home Secretary, thank you very much, we now have too many powers, we would like to give some up please in the interests of the common good. There is a slow ratchet towards a police state. Unfortunately, it is also fed by the tabloidist approach to crime (to whom many on this site - the string-em up mob - subscribe).
 
#19
Mad_Mac,

I know what your saying from the original post, but your Son got nicked for assualt, simple as that.

What he should have done was break the little Ba****ds legs and done the job correctly!..
 
#20
DNA sampling, CCTV everywhere (not just where it is required), talk of biometric ID cards, draconian powers of arrest and countless other infringements of liberty are passed of with the phrase "those who have nothing to hide will have nothing to fear". To which my response is "why shouldn't I have something to hide". The right to a private life, and the right to hold your own beliefs is what World Wars were fought over and I am severely worried about the way these fundamental rights are being swept aside under the pretence of improving national security.

In answer to the overall question - Yes, we are living in a police state, and while the slack jawed masses crunch crisps in front of Big Brother and fail to wake up to what is happening this will continue.
 

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