Anything that moves?

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by GunsaBlazin, Apr 14, 2004.

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  1. Albeit from a non-expert observer, this is the only non-military, non-embedded viewpoint from inside Fallujah that I could find. It's been posted on an anti-censorship website www.opendemocracy.net
    from an aid worker helping to remove wounded. It's pretty nasty stuff. Are the Yanks shooting indiscriminately? Why does everything always get blamed on American troops? Is the extra ten thousand boots on the ground a good idea?

    Interesting contrast between the report and the official Centcom reply, which is a masterpiece of euphemism. Very worrying.

    Can open, worms, everywhere.



    Guns
     
  2. After reading that harrowing piece of information, it really doesn't surprise me that the US are turning Iraq into a quagmire. The average US squaddie is arrogant and believes in superior firepower and that the US is always correct. Vietnam and Somalia have taught them nothing, still the rising body count of dead US servicemen may begin to hit home, however I doubt that.

    I only hope T Bliar sits up and begins to think for himself for once.

    FAT CHANCE OF THAT! :(

    Cynical me-never!
     
  3. I think that this generation of US troops only see Vietnam and to a certain degree, Somalia as a hazy group of movies that couldnt possibly be reality.

    I agree with your statement, dui-lai, regarding the attitude of US troops.

    The general sentiment of the US public is now swallowing its pride and patriotism in its support for the reasons to action in Iraq. Not wishing to throw the 'we told you so' card at them, its the US public that will ultimatley have the vito.

    It is, however, easy to sit in the cosy confines of an internet forum and decide the rights and wrongs of the current situation.

    As we are all aware, reporting the news is a bit of a hypocritical statement. But, I agree that America has appeared to have forgotten serious lessons in previous 'outings'.

    Do you think they (America) will admit they havent got it quite right or will they continue to appear to save face by making a bad situation worse and accept the casualties? How much is it worth? Do they really give a feck about a installing a Western democratic system in the sandpit?
     
  4. Some interesting stuff on the BBC website about how the US is borrowing it's FIBUA (or MOUT or whatever else it's called these days) doctrine from the Israelis.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3625315.stm

    This would explain a lot of the behaviour we've been seeing. Trouble is, they seem to have missed the lesson that decades of this sort of behaviour by the Israelis has not resolved the situation. I'm trying to think of anti-terrorist campaigns that worked - Malaya for one, although we were leaving anyway, and perhaps NI, where political compromise won through. Anyone think of any more ?

    Anyway, the point is that action as currently being taken by the US is doomed to failure. Use of massive force in urban areas will only serve to harden the fighters resolve and recruit more to the cause. I do not see a clear US strategy to get out of this one, they appear to slide from crisis to crisis.

    All pretty depressing really.
     
  5. Clumsy and with little vision of consequences...heavy-handed and insensitive - yes to all. Insincere - absolutely not. Western Europeans just do not get where the americans are coming from - they actually believe in democracy for everyone as the best form of fair government that will benefit mankind. Their country was founded on those principles and it drives their vision and actions. Europeans are far more 'pragmatic' - or you could read self-centred...we stick to our own interests, and massage away principles with ideas like 'well they've never had democracy', or 'it wouldn't work for them'....inference being that crass arabs or slavs can't cope with choice and freedom.

    Look at our country - we invented the train and we can't even make them run on time; our inner cities are rotting; our people are selfish and idle; our politicians are the lowest and most selfish opportunists; our established church is a metaphor for homosexual spinelessness...the only things that are any good are being run into the ground. The nation works in spite of itrself, not beacuse of the way we run.

    Yanks might be getting a lot wrong...but they also get a lot more right. Paratroopers on this website frequently refer to bl;oody-minded antagonism they encounter, based on jealousy and envy. I think there's something to that. I think the principle is the same for the knee-jerk any-americanism that pervades this country - and the rest of europe. Why are we being soft on Iran? As if our sophistry will elicit better behaviour than America's firm line.

    Bottom line - majority of Iraqis want coalition to stay for the time being until transfer of power. Also happier now than under Saddam. Also against the militants. Equally, also v pissed off about unemployment, power, security...and thats what needs to be sorted. Which it is - but slowly.
     
  6. I like many things about the American military, but in my experience their Lowest Common Denominator (LCD) is a lot lower than ours. I.e. their Grunt is not half the soldier of our Tom. Therefore they are incapable of going about their business in the same way that we would.

    What am I trying to say - I don't think the Americans can employ the same tactics that we use in counter-insurgency operations. Our tactics rely not so much on combat power but on brain power, junior commanders that are able to understand their higher commander's intent and much hard earned experience. We have the collective experience, they do not. We have imparted our experience to them but because their LCD is so low it has not been difficult for them to employ and it has not become intuitive.

    Under stress my guess is they revert to what they know best - the application of overwhelming combat power, and sad to say the collateral damage that is such circumstances is inevitable. This is hardly likely to endear them to "neutral" observers or those Iraqis that have doubts about the benefits of the Coalition occupation. Until they can modify their tactics they will continue to attract adverse comment and fail to win over the "wavering" Iraqi population.