Anyone Going to The National Archives at Kew?

#21
have you tried their online link at kew??
Not sure exactly what you mean? I don't think this archive has been scanned

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#23
That's great, I'm excited to see what's in there!
 
#24
@Psypher has very kindly sent me photos of the files from TNA which provide a bit more detail although aren't quite as informative as I'd hoped.

Looking at them they do seem to refer to other reports though and I'd be interested if anyone had any knowledge of where they may be found?
  • M(?) 63432 - B of Tr - Masters' Rep
  • NJD(?) 4745 Report by Master of St Mattieu(?)
All thoughts gratefully received including suggestions for other areas of the internet where I might be able to find assistance.

ADM_137_3982_0000.jpg
ADM_137_3982_0001.jpg
ADM_137_3982_0002.jpg
 
#25
@Psypher has very kindly sent me photos of the files from TNA which provide a bit more detail although aren't quite as informative as I'd hoped.

Looking at them they do seem to refer to other reports though and I'd be interested if anyone had any knowledge of where they may be found?
  • M(?) 63432 - B of Tr - Masters' Rep
  • NJD(?) 4745 Report by Master of St Mattieu(?)
All thoughts gratefully received including suggestions for other areas of the internet where I might be able to find assistance.

View attachment 388566 View attachment 388567 View attachment 388568
@Psypher is obviously a good egg. ADM 137 refers to the archives fond, 'Royal Naval Operations for the First World War'; "Admiralty: Historical Section: Records used for Official History, First World War" (used by 'historians' to compile the Official Histories of The First World War).

It's late, but in regard to your interest, many of these records are not online therefore more visits to TNA may be necessary. And after all, they hold the principal records, but you might try the RMG Greenwich. Either of those museums might have a book or books. Perhaps the Official WWI Naval History book, bought or borrowed, might be useful; OFFICIAL HISTORY OF THE WAR. NAVAL OPERATIONS. Five volume set. - Naval & Military Press.

'ADM' denotes the old Admiralty Record Office which was responsible for filing and management of all official Admiralty documents from 1809 until 1964. The ARO is considered by some to have been a bit of a shambles, before whatever survived was transferred from Deptford to the PRO.

"Records in ADM 137 cover actions and complete operations as recorded via telegrams, signals and operational reports", from various feeders: listed at TNA online.

By magnifying the photos you posted, it's possible to make some sense of them:

ADM 137/3982 refers to Enemy submarines: particulars of attacks on merchant vessels in home waters.

635 means ADM 137/635: referring to Home Waters General Operations, Telegrams, 1917, December. Communications | Conflict | Navy | Official Publications.

In the National Archives, ADM 137 documents "are arranged in three series, respectively from the Admiralty Secretariat, from commands and stations, and from Naval Staff."

The National Archives' website says that "Most of the relevant records for Royal Navy operations in the First World War are in the principal record series ADM 1, ADM 116 and ADM 137."

The link to the extensive, explanatory National Archives guide online is: Royal Navy operations in the First World War - The National Archives .

I wondered whether the French Navy St Mathieu was the Navy Trawler (defensively armed but not in naval service) attacked by U-22.

Principal records are held by TNA, but you might find more help with researching the personnel, vessels and operations of the Royal Navy and its auxiliary forces during 1914-1918, in the Caird Library and Archive at Royal Museums Greenwich, which has a research guide at https://www.rmg.co.uk/sites/default/files/b11-research_guide_royal_navy_in_ww1_august_2014.pdf/


Edited to correct spelling of Psypher's callsign.
 
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#26
The Master's Report M.63432 is likely secreted in the Board of Trade BT series of records at Kew.

I'm not too up on the BT series other than for finding vessel crew agreements and merchant navy personal records. I'll direct a few smarter chaps towards this thread to see if they can nail down the other reports annotated on the East Point report.
 
#27
The Master's Report M.63432 is likely secreted in the Board of Trade BT series of records at Kew.

I'm not too up on the BT series other than for finding vessel crew agreements and merchant navy personal records. I'll direct a few smarter chaps towards this thread to see if they can nail down the other reports annotated on the East Point report.
That was my hunch, they both look like an old reference numbers. At some point they got transferred over a to a newer system which Kew now uses. You'll often see documents marked in Discovery as 'Original reference' then the weirdest uncoordinated mess of numbers you're likely to see this side of a URL.
 
#28
A very useful response via Twitter from @SeaSpitfires:

@SeaSpitfires said:
Visit the @maritimetrust Forgotten Wrecks portal here and search for East Point, then click on the dot and use the menus on the right to see more.
(link: Forgotten Wrecks of the First World War - Interactive Chart)
map.forgottenwrecks.org

What you photographed are the typed responses to the master's report to the Board of Trade. The original copy, perhaps with more documentation and reports, is probably in ADM 137/1306 (South West Approach: German Submarines; 1 - 12 March 1917).

There's information in ADM 137/2961 (British Merchant Vessels Sunk and Captured by the Enemy January to April 1917), although this will be a one page summary of the loss. The wreck portal also has links to video of the wreck and insurance records (might be Eastern Prince tho).

In all likelihood, these records have already been photographed by the Forgotten Wrecks project (possibly by me a few years ago!). If you ask @maritimetrust nicely, they may be able to provide them for you.
 
#29
@SeaSpitfires via Twitter said:
One quick addendum - East Point's wreck is quite close to the boundary between SW Approaches and the English Channel Admiralty areas. The report of the sinking, including the master's original report should be in the record above, but sometimes those on the boundary slipped into the neighbouring zone. So the record may be in ADM 137/1294 (English Channel: German submarines, March 1917). There is always the possibility that the record is in neither of course. That does happen on occasion.
 
#30
That was my hunch, they both look like an old reference numbers. At some point they got transferred over a to a newer system which Kew now uses. You'll often see documents marked in Discovery as 'Original reference' then the weirdest uncoordinated mess of numbers you're likely to see this side of a URL.
Being able to navigate a department's original registry system is key to finding some of the more obscure records at Kew. Also gives a good insight into what want into the shredder too or is otherwise not publicly available.
 
#31
I've also been asking on the Great War Forum and it has been suggested that another couple of archives might have more information:
Unsurprisingly I'm therefore asking anyone who plans of visiting in the near future if they could have a look and see if there is anything of interest relating to the 9th March, SS East Point or Steam Trawler (ST) Matthieu (possibly Mathieu?).
 
#32
#33
So I've exchanged emails with @maritimetrust and got a copy of the document they have. Unfortunately it is only a one page summary that contains little other than the information I already have.

I'd therefore be very grateful if anyone going to the TNA would be able to look into these two archives:
TIA
You still need these items? I'm planning a trip either this weekend, or next. Obviously my boring Ordnance board Procs will be the first thing I get, but I suspect there will be spare time to deal with your requests.
 
#34
You still need these items? I'm planning a trip either this weekend, or next. Obviously my boring Ordnance board Procs will be the first thing I get, but I suspect there will be spare time to deal with your requests.
Yes please. Anything you were able to get would be gratefully received.

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#36
So I've exchanged emails with @maritimetrust and got a copy of the document they have. Unfortunately it is only a one page summary that contains little other than the information I already have.

I'd therefore be very grateful if anyone going to the TNA would be able to look into these two archives:
TIA
I got 137/741, but I fear someone is playing silly buggers with you boss. 137/1294 was listed as unavailable to order all day.
 
#37
I got 137/741, but I fear someone is playing silly buggers with you boss. 137/1294 was listed as unavailable to order all day.
That's interesting. I guess someone else must be researching a similar topic?

Would you be able to email me pics of the first document pse? Admin@arrse.co.uk

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#39
Thanks very much
 
#40

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