Any navigators on here?

Ravers

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
So, how it'd actually work...

Priority 1: recover the helicopter. This means you put a bit less time in the air than the fuel suggests "just in case"; you also have something called "RAMP fuel" which means you arrive at the ship with a couple of landings worth of fuel available to you. You'll also have to account for faff the other end, so that's more fuel to stash away. In the end, burn rate etc is almost academic (and will come to rough, ready and trusted handfuls rather than an exact calculation).

Priority 2: look after the Ship. In all likelihood, the Ship will continue to close. See point 1. If not, it will loiter in the launch position.

Note - having done exactly this scenario, the limiting factor in a casevac will be either oxygen or blood supplies, given you'll be transiting for days afterwards to get to definitive medical care. In all honesty, the 20 or 30 mins you may or may not save by doing complicated maths won't even factor; the sea and weather will have a much bigger vote.
Probably also worth pointing out that the ship will have an MO and a reasonably well equipped sickbay onboard.

I would say it’s better to get a casualty onboard and in the care of a medical professional as quickly as possible.

Better to be a casualty in the sickbay with the doc, than be a casualty in the back of a helicopter.
 
Probably also worth pointing out that the ship will have an MO and a reasonably well equipped sickbay onboard.

I would say it’s better to get a casualty onboard and in the care of a medical professional as quickly as possible.

Better to be a casualty in the sickbay with the doc, than be a casualty in the back of a helicopter.
Assuming some lunatic at the helm isn't doing doughnuts.
 
Is that directed at me?
I learned about the 3-1 ratio etc. Descent rates. Nothing was 'Triangle of velocities' though.
You'll have to elaborate Im afraid. I appear to have attained a PPL without knowing of this 'triangle'.
Maybe something I know as something else.

Edit: @Toastie who is a skygod...please elaborate.

Anyone who has a CAA / JAR PPL (showing my age there!) will know triangle of velocities, they might just not know it by that label.

AP 3456 (Manual of Flying) is your friend, or indeed any of the equivalent civilian publications.

Simply put, in the ac you fly a heading on your DI / compass, and an airspeed on your ASI. For this example we'll assume Indicated and True Airspeed to be the same thing (they differ markedly in some flight profiles).

That hdg and speed that you fly (to 1 degree and 1 knot, always :D) will result in a certain track over the ground and groundspeed. The factor which makes them differ, is wind.

Simples*.

* - F***ing hell, do I owe my Groundschool Instructors huge amounts of beer for their patience in getting this to penetrate the pigsh*t between my ears..........

image-18.jpg
 
Probably also worth pointing out that the ship will have an MO and a reasonably well equipped sickbay onboard.

I would say it’s better to get a casualty onboard and in the care of a medical professional as quickly as possible.

Better to be a casualty in the sickbay with the doc, than be a casualty in the back of a helicopter.

In the situation that the OP describes, absolutely. However, MERT in Iraq / Afghanistan introduced the concept of taking the medical specialists to the casualty (eg by fitting out the back of a CH47 to be the nearest thing they humanly could to a trauma room).
 
D

Deleted 4482

Guest
Anyone who has a CAA / JAR PPL (showing my age there!) will know triangle of velocities, they might just not know it by that label.

AP 3456 (Manual of Flying) is your friend, or indeed any of the equivalent civilian publications.

Simply put, in the ac you fly a heading on your DI / compass, and an airspeed on your ASI. For this example we'll assume Indicated and True Airspeed to be the same thing (they differ markedly in some flight profiles).

That hdg and speed that you fly (to 1 degree and 1 knot, always :D) will result in a certain track over the ground and groundspeed. The factor which makes them differ, is wind.

Simples*.

* - F***ing hell, do I owe my Groundschool Instructors huge amounts of beer for their patience in getting this to penetrate the pigsh*t between my ears..........

View attachment 577114
Ah, I just knew that as something to be worked out on the CRP...
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
About 30 seconds of plate breaking, chef infuriating wheel over here.

Geordie gunboat. Somewhere in the Caribbean. 2002.
View attachment 577109

The US Navy boomers do an routine exercise called
'Angles and dangles' -

People don't really understand that if you have a steel can moving at 20 kts in a straight line and apply 30 degrees of rudder the deck will heel over ....um...a fair bit....

1622279278627.png
 

Ravers

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
The US Navy boomers do an routine exercise called
'Angles and dangles' -

People don't really understand that if you have a steel can moving at 20 kts in a straight line and apply 30 degrees of rudder the deck will heel over ....um...a fair bit....

View attachment 577135
I have a few submariner oppos who suffer from seasickness.

Always funny giving them the whole “what you’re in the Navy and you get seasick?”

Apparently once you’re under you don’t feel much.

******* weaklings....
3CFE5280-7F46-4282-9405-B27D3FE37D1A.jpeg
4D54522A-E625-40A9-9C66-C81D918E5630.jpeg
48406AD3-448C-466C-80AA-0B710206B0B9.jpeg
 

ColdWarWorrier

Old-Salt
From an RW pilot’s point of view (Army and Air Ambulance) I’ve only ever done casevac over land. However, in this scenario I’d expect the helo to launch at max distance (say half the endurance) and expect the ship to continue, at max chat, in the direction I’d just departed in to cut down the time of the return journey.

Getting the cas back to the ship (or definitive medical care) is the priority. A fully-equipped med bay with a doctor and all the kit is far superior to treating someone in the back of the cab.

Even in a proper Air Ambulance here is little scope for treatment in the back, which is why the medics try to stabilise on site. People are often surprised by how long the air ambulance stays on the ground at an incident, spending time stabilising the patient on scene. (MERT being the honourable exception - but that’s basically a flying operating theatre).

Treating the cas on the floor on a stretcher in the back of a Lynx would be difficult. Better to get the cas back on board the ship as quickly as possible. So the nearer the ship is for the return flight, the better.

ETA: It can be a pretty uncomfortable flight for the patient, even in properly-equipped Air Ambulance, so keeping the (return) flight time to a minimum is also a consideration.

Also, if the patient’goes off’ in flight, there is little the medics can do due to lack of space and where equipment is located, all reasons for shortening the return flight as much as possible.
 
Last edited:
Anyone who has a CAA / JAR PPL (showing my age there!) will know triangle of velocities, they might just not know it by that label.

AP 3456 (Manual of Flying) is your friend, or indeed any of the equivalent civilian publications.

Simply put, in the ac you fly a heading on your DI / compass, and an airspeed on your ASI. For this example we'll assume Indicated and True Airspeed to be the same thing (they differ markedly in some flight profiles).

That hdg and speed that you fly (to 1 degree and 1 knot, always :D) will result in a certain track over the ground and groundspeed. The factor which makes them differ, is wind.

Simples*.

* - F***ing hell, do I owe my Groundschool Instructors huge amounts of beer for their patience in getting this to penetrate the pigsh*t between my ears..........

View attachment 577114
I vaguely remember something similar from my Yachtmaster course.
 
Logic over real knowledge:

1. Keep ship steaming at 15knts to South Georgia, thus averaging the two S/T/D issues.
2. As ship closes primary medical centre at other end of the voyage - launch helo 300 miles out.
 

ColdWarWorrier

Old-Salt
Anyone who has a CAA / JAR PPL (showing my age there!) will know triangle of velocities, they might just not know it by that label.

AP 3456 (Manual of Flying) is your friend, or indeed any of the equivalent civilian publications.

Simply put, in the ac you fly a heading on your DI / compass, and an airspeed on your ASI. For this example we'll assume Indicated and True Airspeed to be the same thing (they differ markedly in some flight profiles).

That hdg and speed that you fly (to 1 degree and 1 knot, always :D) will result in a certain track over the ground and groundspeed. The factor which makes them differ, is wind.

Simples*.

* - F***ing hell, do I owe my Groundschool Instructors huge amounts of beer for their patience in getting this to penetrate the pigsh*t between my ears..........

View attachment 577114
That’s one of those things you have to be able to calculate on a whizz-wheel for the ATPL exams, and promptly forget once you’ve passed Nav and move onto the next subject.
 

Himmler74

On ROPS
On ROPs
Read Vulcan 607. How to get a single Vulcan from Ascension to Stanley, bomb airstrip, head back. Required one bomber and I think 13 tankers. And a spare bomber. Which was just as well because the designated bomber aborted right after take off for a failed seal.

And 607 was preparing to destroy ciphers and ditch when it met the tanker coming back, cos fuel was out.

It may help you get your head around the problem.

And for the nay-sayers that say it didn't work, because only one bomb out of I think 21 hit the runway, they don't understand that the plan was to lay an overlapping string of craters across at an angle for maximum chance of success. One hit was enough to deny Argie fast air for the duration.
Also Black. Buck wasn’t a singular sortie, several were launched subsequently meaning the argies withdrew some Fast Jets for home defence hence limiting overhead CAP and strike options.
 
Last edited:

Sticky847

Old-Salt
Can’t help with the maths but having been a ships flight mechanic I remember that when the cab launches for a casevac the ship keeps motoring after it almost until the cab in back in sight then onto a suitable course to land on, soon as cab is lashed down ship onto best course for land and then max chat thatawa.
 
To be fair, the whole radius of action / endurance / relative velocities calculations are not to be f***ed about with, esp in the maritime environment.
This is what happens when you don’t afford it the correct due care & attention:



I went to a presentation in 2009 where this incident was highlighted; the Flight Commander walked away with no sanction at all.
 

Sticky847

Old-Salt
To be fair, the whole radius of action / endurance / relative velocities calculations are not to be f***ed about with, esp in the maritime environment.
This is what happens when you don’t afford it the correct due care & attention:



I went to a presentation in 2009 where this incident was highlighted; the Flight Commander walked away with no sanction at all.
The flight commander went on to be 815 NAS C O a couple of yrs ago.
 
The flight commander went on to be 815 NAS C O a couple of yrs ago.

The presenter of the extremely informative briefing in question was pretty confident that the Flight Commander quietly left the RN shortly thereafter.
 
Last edited:

Sticky847

Old-Salt
The presenter of the extremely informative briefing in question was pretty confident that the Flight Commander in question quietly left the RN shortly thereafter.
Must admit I’m assuming flt cdr was the pilot who did become 815 CO, if it’s was the observer then my bad as most of my flt cdrs were the pilot not the observer.
 
The pilot ended up as the CO 815; the Flt Cdr was an observer, and you could hear his spurs all the way down 2 deck.
 

Latest Threads

Top