Any Health and Safety Nazis or fuel gurus out there?

#1
As always, I need professional advice and in this instance, Google is not my friend. I´m trying to use an ATEX safe pump to pump fuel. I want to use a diesel generator to run the pump. Does anyone know what the safety distance is for the generator so that the pump remains ATEX safe? Thanks in anticipation.
 
#5
Hazardous Area Classification and Control of Ignition Sources

ATEX itself is quite a strange beast and can be a bit confusing. The reason google is not your friend in this case is because ATEX lays down the criteria for how the equipment you intend to use within a hazardous zone should be constructed and what safety measures should be designed into the system.

You need to identify the zone (0,1,2) and extent. Depending on what it is that you intend to pump and the activity you are carrying out will dictate what sort of zone you are creating and consequently what type of equipment you need.

I've been a Pet Op for 20 years and it still confuses the **** out of me - apply the BPS666 rule of thumb and bang 50 metres around your activity and you won't go far wrong. BH90210 might be able to give you more definitive answer but he's probably wanking himself silly over a photgraph of a truck somewhere or trying to recover a Drops from a lake or some such shit!

JSP 317 Part 2 Chap 3 gives detailed diagrams regarding the types and extents of hazardous zones for the common activities that we normally carry out. If you need further shit on this crap please feel free to ask and I'll help where I can.

Where are you and what are you doing?

Edited to add the following links:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l136.pdf
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/hsg140.pdf
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l133.pdf
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l134.pdf


They are all free from HSE website and should give you an idea.
 
#7
On the subject of fuel pumps, the AVGAS bowser at the APA Netheravon which was used for filling the Islanders I suspect came with the original CES for the airfield around 1910..

This bowser had a Gardiner single cylinder "pop 'n bang" petrol engine driving the fuel pump, complete with exposed magneto and spark gap. It lived in a tin box under the bowser, which was always padlocked when fuel was delivered, when we used the large hand pump if anyone was watching!

Worked fine for at least 60 years..
 
#8
HE117 -I know exactly where you are coming from. There is **** all wrong with the kit we have used for the last 50 years apart from the fact that it is old and heavy. How many of the ministers who drove through ATEX etc have shares and interests in the likes of Cobham engineering Dunlop etc. Not that we will see a mass roll out very shortly but JOFS is costing a ******* fortune when off the shelf solutions are already in existance at nearly a 3rd of the price. Greedy ******* people involved with KBfuckingR!
 
#9
50 meters! **** that, i.ve refulled rally cars with a gen set no more than 5 meters away and still signed off by the fire brigade. As long as the gen set and pumps are earther you wont have an issue (usually) what are you pumping and where?
 
#10
50 meters! **** that, i.ve refulled rally cars with a gen set no more than 5 meters away and still signed off by the fire brigade. As long as the gen set and pumps are earther you wont have an issue (usually) what are you pumping and where?
Diesel, using a trailer mounted pump, outdoors.
 
#11
even more simple - the ATEX zone would be classed as low risk and in zone 22 (gas potential) as you'll unlikely to have an exposure lasting more than 10hrs in any given year. Though Diesel has naff all vapours and a flash higher than 55c this shouldn't be an issue. Only thing you are likely to need is risk assesmnet <yawn> and firebrigade approval if in public space, though in reality if you are going to a motorsport event or something else no ****** will care anyway. i'll try and dig out some info as i had to do all this not so long ago.
 
#13
the point in question being how far does the gen set need to be away from the pump for it to remain ATEX i.e. epxlosion proof.. Diesel is far safer than petrol where vapours and spark risk are an issue. There's a reason diesel vehicles can enter refineries when petrol are not!! If you are pumping diesel, you can keep it simple and cheap, petrol becomes problematic becuase of vapour and spark (minus 47 as opposed to +55c) The gen set in this case makes no bearing on the pump remaining ATEX compliant as you a re using a different class product. Risk aversion is to ensure proper earthing from pump to vehicle and gen to earth.
 
#14
jsut to clarify, ATEX
What is an explosive atmosphere?
In DSEAR, an explosive atmosphere is defined as a mixture of dangerous substances with air, under atmospheric conditions, in the form of gases, vapours, mist or dust in which, after ignition has occurred, combustion spreads to the entire unburned mixture.

Atmospheric conditions are commonly referred to as ambient temperatures and pressures. That is to say temperatures of –20°C to 40°C and pressures of 0.8 to 1.1 bar.

diesel is therfore out of the scope of being "vapour" in the given parameters as per DSEAR.
 
#15
Pacestick, very unlikely that diesel will produce a cloud of combustable dust as in Zone 22 or have you got sausage fingers?

Had a bit more of a dig for you Jorrocks the folowing applies to your circumstances as discussed:

For loading and unloading of vehicles
Zone 1 extending to a distance of 1 metre around hose connections on the vehicle
Zone 2 extending to a distance of 4 metres around the vehicle at a height of 1 metre from the floor
Zone 2 extending to 1 metre radius and height from the middle of any manlids on the tank

Originally quoted 50 metres as I wasn't sure what you were up to.

Given that there will be two vehicles involved then your hazard zone foot print would require that non atex equipment be deployed about 16 metres away, which ties in with the 15 metres safety distance around Bulk Fuel Carrying Vehicles
 
#16
very good mate - do the same rules apply when you 'pressurise' a closed line refuelling system? If so can you have a word with the tit that invented the diesel engine he appears to have got it wrong!

as per DSEAR (funnily enough)

Temperatures and pressures
Additional information relating to the process that involve the dangerous
substances should also be taken into account, including the temperatures and
pressures used in the process, as this will influence the nature and extent of
any release, and the extent of any subsequent hazardous areas. Some
substances do not form explosive atmospheres unless they are heated, and
some liquids if released under pressure will form a fine mist that can explode
even if there is insufficient vapour.

Diesel being one such substance.
 
#17
BPS, the point i'm making is that Jorrocks is pumping diesel which is not covered by DSEAR, the ATEX approved pump would then be an overkill for the application. DSEAR and ATEX are/were designed for semi to permanent installations and not a bowser off load job at your local arifield or whatever. If in Doubt consult local fire authority if it's on public land.

BPS i'll give you the sausage fingers bit!
 
#18
High pressure common rail systems are a closed system and don't vent to atmosphe, though when injected, the burn is in a controlled environment i.e. the combustion chamber and not a room. so no they don't apply :)
 
#19
pacestick - My point is that if you are pumping diesel under pressure and there is a leak then there is potential for a fine mist or vapour to form which can be flammable. Jorrocks has explained via email what the equipment is required for and there is potential for it to be used in recovering large amounts of class 1,2 or 3 products dependant on the situation.
 
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