Another Apache down?

#4
Hope this helps...

Reuters said:
U.S. says no reports of helicopter down in Iraq

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - The U.S. military said it had no information of an American military helicopter crashing north of Baghdad on Sunday after residents reported one went down under fire.

"We have no reports of a U.S. military helicopter being down," U.S. military spokeswoman Lieutenant-Colonel Josslyn Aberle said.

Residents reported seeing a missile hit an Apache attack helicopter, which carries two crew, bringing it down in the Timayma area, near Taji, site of a major U.S. air base 20 km (12 miles) north of Baghdad.

Six helicopters have come down in Iraq in the last three weeks. The U.S. military has confirmed that at least four of those were shot down after being struck by ground fire and says it has adjusted its tactics accordingly.
 
#5
The insurgents certainly have upgraded their AA capability - and the only way they could realistically have done that is through Iran
 
#8
Sven said:
The insurgents certainly have upgraded their AA capability - and the only way they could realistically have done that is through Iran

Really?

RPGs can still hoof a cab out of the sky and those can be purchased on AllahachBay ffs.


I'll bet you believe the US's latest document proving Tehrans part in it all. I think its the second part to the novel 'WMD's, Iraq and Saddam'.


Again, any proof Svenski?


BTW, it's good to see the report was unfounded re the Apache.
 
#9
whitecity said:
Hope this helps...

Reuters said:
U.S. says no reports of helicopter down in Iraq

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - The U.S. military said it had no information of an American military helicopter crashing north of Baghdad on Sunday after residents reported one went down under fire.

"We have no reports of a U.S. military helicopter being down," U.S. military spokeswoman Lieutenant-Colonel Josslyn Aberle said.

Residents reported seeing a missile hit an Apache attack helicopter, which carries two crew, bringing it down in the Timayma area, near Taji, site of a major U.S. air base 20 km (12 miles) north of Baghdad.

Six helicopters have come down in Iraq in the last three weeks. The U.S. military has confirmed that at least four of those were shot down after being struck by ground fire and says it has adjusted its tactics accordingly.
Merkator, why have you changed your nick-name?
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
#10
Sven said:
The insurgents certainly have upgraded their AA capability - and the only way they could realistically have done that is through Iran
good grief Sven.....you've never worked in the Arms business have you? I have.

I remember being asked by a (British) arms dealer whether he should buy some (U.S) supplied Stinger missiles back in the late 80's/early 90's......he was a bit concerned because they were originally supplied by the CIA to Mujahideen in AFG ......Stinger might be old but it would probably still do the biz for Apache. SA7/9 even more freely available for wads of shrink-wrapped CPA dollars.....

Iraq is awash with weapons of every description and has long and porous borders........MANPADS could equally have come from Syria,Turkey or China...take your pick. Only the very credulous will finger the Ayatollahs every time some bad sh1t goes down in Iraq.

The Cousins have been itching to get some serious stick time in with Iran since 1980......roll on a 'Gulf of Tonkin' type incident ( God preserve us)

....and be with the aircrew concerned.

Le Chevre
 
#11
Goatman said:
Sven said:
The insurgents certainly have upgraded their AA capability - and the only way they could realistically have done that is through Iran
good grief Sven.....you've never worked in the Arms business have you? I have.

I remember being asked by a (British) arms dealer whether he should buy some (U.S) supplied Stinger missiles back in the late 80's/early 90's......he was a bit concerned because they were originally supplied by the CIA to Mujahideen in AFG ......Stinger might be old but it would probably still do the biz for Apache. SA7/9 even more freely available for wads of shrink-wrapped CPA dollars.....

Iraq is awash with weapons of every description and has long and porous borders........MANPADS could equally have come from Syria,Turkey or China...take your pick. Only the very credulous will finger the Ayatollahs every time some bad sh1t goes down in Iraq.

The Cousins have been itching to get some serious stick time in with Iran since 1980......roll on a 'Gulf of Tonkin' type incident ( God preserve us)

....and be with the aircrew concerned.

Le Chevre
Doesn't apache have radar lock on warning? Which would alert the powers that be that the insurgents used sams (and the type if the aircrew had enough time to get a warning off) Whilst I bow to Your superior knowledge, I was under the impression that they were knocked down using a 23/4 type machine gun arrangement. Less handy for smuggling from the North or West.
 
#12
I find it very difficult to believe that the Iranians are not involved at some level - even if its only a bloke sitting watching and taking notes for his AAR. However, I also find it difficult to believe that they'd be daft enough to help in an obvious and easily detected manner.

As has been pointed out, the locals are both motivated and equipped to give the US a hard time. But it does seem mighty convenient that just as the US starts to ramp up the rhetoric one of their iconic weapon systems starts to fall from the sky in flames. I think the Iranians are sending a subtle message for the US to back off, a message that they're prepared to go all the way, that they're equipped and motivated to inflict mass casualties on the US. I also think the US will miss it completely as their current belief driven policies are by definition immune to the real world.

And as for radar, the most likely candidates are all IR homers so no radar emissions to provide warning.
 
#13
Strange makes a good point. Since the US started taking the gloves off, the incidents of ac being shot down have increased markedly. Are we entering a new phase here?
 
#14
It might be all coincidence, but didn't the USSR loose in Afghanistan largely because of US supplied Stingers? Sadly, what goes around comes around. I think that the USSR lost up to about 400 aircraft in total (please correct me as I am not sure.).

God bless the US and British aircrew.
 
#15
Sven said:
Doesn't apache have radar lock on warning? Which would alert the powers that be that the insurgents used sams (and the type if the aircrew had enough time to get a warning off) Whilst I bow to Your superior knowledge, I was under the impression that they were knocked down using a 23/4 type machine gun arrangement. Less handy for smuggling from the North or West.
'Bout as much use as a chocolate teapot if the 'missile' is in reality a line-of-sight fired RPG or a passive-IR guided SAM. :x
 
#16
Anybody who tries to pretend they do not know what the problem is must be using that well known item:

Bucket, Sand (1x), Head inserting, Military Planners, Use of

http://www.fas.org/asmp/campaigns/MANPADS/MANPADS.html

."...manpads pilfered from Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein's massive arms stockpiles were later purchased by the Coalition Provisional Authority for a mere $500 apiece. While later generation manpads cost significantly more (>$30,000), they are still within easy reach of well financed terrorist and criminal groups."
 
#17
whitecity said:
Sven said:
Doesn't apache have radar lock on warning? Which would alert the powers that be that the insurgents used sams (and the type if the aircrew had enough time to get a warning off) Whilst I bow to Your superior knowledge, I was under the impression that they were knocked down using a 23/4 type machine gun arrangement. Less handy for smuggling from the North or West.
'Bout as much use as a chocolate teapot if the 'missile' is in reality a line-of-sight fired RPG or a passive-IR guided SAM. :x
All the more reason for investing in the very latest anti missile systems. Systems such as the one cancelled by the MoD (on grounds of cost), for some C130 ac. As a counter to lead and RPG, fuel tank protection is also required to improve survivability. Too early to say if all this is coincidence, but Iran can lay its hands on all kinds of equipment, on the open market. We need the very best kit for our troops. and it always pays to stay one or two steps ahead.
 
#18
Surely common sense suggests that the most likely source of MANPADS in Iraq is probably the original Iraqi Army stocks: some redistributed prior to the invasion and others looted from unguarded, insecure facilities post invasion.

Here's the MNF-I official press briefing on the subject. Note NO mention of Iran. Hmmmm!

General speaks on recent enemy attacks on Coalition aircraft

Monday, 12 February 2007

BAGHDAD — The deputy commanding general for support, Multi-National Corps – Iraq, addressed the recent enemy assaults on Coalition aircrafts here Sunday.

Maj. Gen. James E. Simmons introduced himself and spoke about issues pertaining to enemy attacks against military aircraft and investigations into downed aircraft.

“We take every engagement of our fixed and rotary wing aircraft seriously,” said Simmons. “When an aircraft is reported to have been shot down, we bring a specially trained team to determine what weapon system actually inflicted damage that resulted in the loss and the tactics the enemy forces employed.”

Simmons offered several statistics on engagements and enemy weaponry used to attack aircraft used for U.S. missions.

“Since December of 2004, we have averaged about 100 aircraft engagements per month,” he said. “The overwhelming majority of those engagements are from small arms fire and automatic weapons fire.

“On average, about 17 aircraft are hit per month,” Simmons continued. “Because of the skills of our aircrews, and the outstanding machines they fly, most of these result in aircraft returning to base for minor repairs.”

In the briefing, Simmons addressed the rise in aircraft, which have been shot down.

“Since the 20th of January, we have had an increase in aircraft that have been shot down,” he said.

Simmons said that two UH-60 aircraft, an EZ-40, two AH-64 aircraft, a Big Gun-72, a Crazy Horse-08, and two civilian aircraft have been shot down since Jan. 20, which resulted in 16 casualties total.

Simmons also addressed enemy tactics and strategy in shooting down aircraft.

“We are engaged with a thinking enemy,” he noted. “This enemy understands that we are in the process of executing the [Iraqi] Prime Minister’s new plan for the security of Baghdad, and they understand the strategic implications of shooting down an aircraft.”

“Therefore, it is in their interests from a strategic perspective to attempt to engage and shoot down our aircraft,” he continued. “This is not a new tactic.”

Simmons offered statistics in the growing use of aircraft in support of Coalition-oriented missions.

Simmons stated that in 2005, Army aircraft has flown 240,000 hours, 334,000 in 2006, and 2007 is scheduled to fly approximately 400,000 hours.

“With that, there is more exposure for the enemy to have more opportunities to engage aircraft,” he said.

Additionally, Simmons expressed his confidence in his pilots.

“I fly with these guys about five or six days a week,” he said. “I can’t tell you how proud I am of the young men and women who are operating these machines.

“They are incredibly talented, bright, courageous [and] professional about what they do, [and] they do it very well,” he continued. “We will continue to fly.”

“I will be proud to fly with them,” he added. “We have not cancelled one mission, and there has been absolutely no reduction in rotary wing aircraft flight, nor will there be.”

(Story and photo by Spc. Carl N. Hudson, Combined Press Information Center)
 
#19
Blogg said:
Anybody who tries to pretend they do not know what the problem is must be using that well known item:

Bucket, Sand (1x), Head inserting, Military Planners, Use of

http://www.fas.org/asmp/campaigns/MANPADS/MANPADS.html

."...manpads pilfered from Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein's massive arms stockpiles were later purchased by the Coalition Provisional Authority for a mere $500 apiece. While later generation manpads cost significantly more (>$30,000), they are still within easy reach of well financed terrorist and criminal groups."
I was under the impression that Saddam had SAM 7, of the type used so effectively in Kenya
 
#20
whitecity said:
Surely common sense suggests that the most likely source of MANPADS in Iraq is probably the original Iraqi Army stocks: some redistributed prior to the invasion and others looted from unguarded, insecure facilities post invasion.

Here's the MNF-I official press briefing on the subject. Note NO mention of Iran. Hmmmm!

General speaks on recent enemy attacks on Coalition aircraft

Monday, 12 February 2007

BAGHDAD — The deputy commanding general for support, Multi-National Corps – Iraq, addressed the recent enemy assaults on Coalition aircrafts here Sunday.

Maj. Gen. James E. Simmons introduced himself and spoke about issues pertaining to enemy attacks against military aircraft and investigations into downed aircraft.

“We take every engagement of our fixed and rotary wing aircraft seriously,” said Simmons. “When an aircraft is reported to have been shot down, we bring a specially trained team to determine what weapon system actually inflicted damage that resulted in the loss and the tactics the enemy forces employed.”

Simmons offered several statistics on engagements and enemy weaponry used to attack aircraft used for U.S. missions.

“Since December of 2004, we have averaged about 100 aircraft engagements per month,” he said. “The overwhelming majority of those engagements are from small arms fire and automatic weapons fire.

“On average, about 17 aircraft are hit per month,” Simmons continued. “Because of the skills of our aircrews, and the outstanding machines they fly, most of these result in aircraft returning to base for minor repairs.”

In the briefing, Simmons addressed the rise in aircraft, which have been shot down.

“Since the 20th of January, we have had an increase in aircraft that have been shot down,” he said.

Simmons said that two UH-60 aircraft, an EZ-40, two AH-64 aircraft, a Big Gun-72, a Crazy Horse-08, and two civilian aircraft have been shot down since Jan. 20, which resulted in 16 casualties total.

Simmons also addressed enemy tactics and strategy in shooting down aircraft.

“We are engaged with a thinking enemy,” he noted. “This enemy understands that we are in the process of executing the [Iraqi] Prime Minister’s new plan for the security of Baghdad, and they understand the strategic implications of shooting down an aircraft.”

“Therefore, it is in their interests from a strategic perspective to attempt to engage and shoot down our aircraft,” he continued. “This is not a new tactic.”

Simmons offered statistics in the growing use of aircraft in support of Coalition-oriented missions.

Simmons stated that in 2005, Army aircraft has flown 240,000 hours, 334,000 in 2006, and 2007 is scheduled to fly approximately 400,000 hours.

“With that, there is more exposure for the enemy to have more opportunities to engage aircraft,” he said.

Additionally, Simmons expressed his confidence in his pilots.

“I fly with these guys about five or six days a week,” he said. “I can’t tell you how proud I am of the young men and women who are operating these machines.

“They are incredibly talented, bright, courageous [and] professional about what they do, [and] they do it very well,” he continued. “We will continue to fly.”

“I will be proud to fly with them,” he added. “We have not cancelled one mission, and there has been absolutely no reduction in rotary wing aircraft flight, nor will there be.”

(Story and photo by Spc. Carl N. Hudson, Combined Press Information Center)
As I said before, I was under the impression that Saddams Anti Air missile consisted of SA7 of the same vintage as te Al Q Kenyan incident
 

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