An odd occurrence this week

[Swan Song]

With your last sentence, I can understand an individual not stating what may have occurred when they were in the presence of the perpetrator of any violence, but this happened once she was removed from any perceived threat ie in the ambulance and then at the hospital.
As I have stated, it just appears to me that they were going out of their way to find that violence had been committed, especially after being told that nothing had occurred.

Over-zealous medics barking up the wrong tree and being unable to shift their thinking can’t be ruled out, of course and I can imagine the sequence of events:

Ambulance attends patient and medics note unexplained injuries – abuse is considered and noted, but questions to the patient about abuse are unlikely to take place in front of the possible abuser.

Ambulance arrives in ED and medics as part of their handover of the patient highlight suspicion, possibly with a verbal briefing which reinforces the consideration of abuse in the minds of ED staff, who at this point are wholly reliant on the handover from the ambulance crew.

ED staff evaluate patient, but at this point may have a greater suspicion of abuse than is warranted due to having it highlighted by ambulance staff, particularly if the unexplained injuries are consistent with a mechanism of injury that can be reasonably explained by physical abuse.

While in ED the staff probe (subtly or otherwise) whether the patient is actually the victim of abuse and while the answers may be negative, the suspicion remains because the injuries remain unexplained.

The patient gets handed over to an acute medical ward with the nursing staff possibly being told that there may be a safeguarding issue, once again reinforcing the idea of abuse, which will remain if the injuries continue to have no other explanation.

So, yes, I can fully understand how medical staff can make two plus two equal five and having it snowball, and in fact there are a couple of good pieces of research that looked specifically into clinicians labelling a patient with one thing and then being reluctant/unwilling to change or let go of their diagnosis, even when the evidence suggested that the diagnosis was wrong.

That said, I should reiterate that if a patient arrives with unexplained injuries that can be framed as possible abuse then medical staff have to consider it; ignoring the possibility is not an option.

 

[theoriginalphantom]

One of the cases I had the joy of dealing with was a couple who were as bad as each other, well generally it was her who was the most argumentative and most violent.

Scottish couple
She was fat, he was a skinny runt
both alcoholics (see point one)
both argumentative (see point one)
both quick to get physical (oh do I have to do this for every stereotype they filled?)

one example, they got pissed and, shock horror, had an argument. Who'd have guessed it would turn to physical violence? she smashed a tall glass ashtray over his head (sand filled one - bought while on exercise in Jordan)
blood and unconsciousness - ambulance crew 1 turn up and haul him away.
in the meantime she starts to feel that this may, in some small way, be partly her fault. So decides to get into their car and follow the ambulance. Which she then promptly crashes, so that's standby ambi deployed.


The follow up from this was that all single people in camp (bearing in mind they lived at a different camp) had to book out at the accommodation, guard room and the main gate, that'll stop pads on another camp drink driving.....

 

[AsterixTG]

Three days ago at approximately 2345, I was woken by er indoors telling me that her guts were on fire and severe bruising had occurred on her legs.
I got out of bed and had a look at what she was on about, and then called an ambulance, which duly arrived.
The crew was a male paramedic and a female paramedic.
They came in and looked at the problem, then decided to take her to the local hospital for admission.
She was discharged the following day.
When I picked her up and we arrived home she told me what transpired, and it goes like this.
As soon as they got her in the ambulance they started to question her as to whether I had attacked her in regard to the bruising, she stated to them that under no circumstances had I ever laid hands on her, obviously, they did not believe this because as soon as she was admitted to the hospital, one of the nurses asked the same question and was given the same answer, but the nurse spent time demonstrating to the doctor the pattern of bruising was consistent with someone applying force with fingers and thumbs to the thighs.
I do not know how the bruising occurred and neither does she.
Once she told me what was being implied I recalled that the female paramedic was sitting there giving me the side-eye and that when I thought about it the looks were quite accusatory.

I realise that medics et al have a function to perform, but from what I saw and heard after the fact, it was as if they were trying to find some way of causing a problem, especially after being told that nothing had occurred.

What was wrong with your missus in the end?

 

[Swan Song]

One of the cases I had the joy of dealing with was a couple who were as bad as each other, well generally it was her who was the most argumentative and most violent.

Scottish couple
She was fat, he was a skinny runt
both alcoholics (see point one)
both argumentative (see point one)
both quick to get physical (oh do I have to do this for every stereotype they filled?)

one example, they got pissed and, shock horror, had an argument. Who'd have guessed it would turn to physical violence? she smashed a tall glass ashtray over his head (sand filled one - bought while on exercise in Jordan)
blood and unconsciousness - ambulance crew 1 turn up and haul him away.
in the meantime she starts to feel that this may, in some small way, be partly her fault. So decides to get into their car and follow the ambulance. Which she then promptly crashes, so that's standby ambi deployed.


The follow up from this was that all single people in camp (bearing in mind they lived at a different camp) had to book out at the accommodation, guard room and the main gate, that'll stop pads on another camp drink driving.....

Mostly I'm happy to treat anybody, regardless of race, colour, creed or background and will put up with quite a bit of personal abuse, because it's often just frustration on the part of the patient, but the ones I have the most difficulty with are the druggies and the alcoholics.

The druggies because they're nearly always a waste of time and don't give a fuck who they abuse as they circle the drain, but the alcoholics are frequently obnoxious, argumentative and disruptive individuals who even when they have alcohol induced encephalopathy often still manage to be violent and destructive.

 

[Swan Song]

Disturbing to read these accounts of over-zealous officials looking for problems where they don't exist.

That said, where exactly is the best place to hit a woman without it leaving a mark?

You could always punch her in the mouth and tell the medics she's just had her botox injection.

 

[dogmeat]

Disturbing to read these accounts of over-zealous officials looking for problems where they don't exist.

That said, where exactly is the best place to hit a woman without it leaving a mark?

Saudi.

 

[mush_dad]

That said, I should reiterate that if a patient arrives with unexplained injuries that can be framed as possible abuse then medical staff have to consider it; ignoring the possibility is not an option.

Or injuries that don't match the explanation. In our trust we had a 2yr old girl with severe scalding injuries to her hand. The parents said that she'd tipped a cup of tea over herself.

The injuries showed no sign of splash or splatter but a clear and consistent watermark at the wrist indicating that the whole hand hand been submerged by force up to the wrist in very hot liquid.

 

[AlienFTM]

About five years ago Zero Alpha and I were walking back from the shop down to an underpass. February, very cold, hands in pockets. When we got home I planned to ask if she was okay because she was shuffling her feet somewhat. Didn't get the chance. She stumbled, lost balance and after a handful of steps faceplanted right in front of me because she couldn't get hands out of pockets. I still have flashbacks every time we approach an underpass.

Her nose was a mess (mercifully she ploughed straight in and the break wasn't displaced. It healed straight without being operated on).

We were a couple of hundred yards from home. I got her home and cleaned her up, then took her to A&E.

She jumped the triage queue, straight into a bed. I watched in disbelief as her blood pressure reading literally went off the scale. How much was hypertension and how much white coat syndrome, I don't know.. I was then taken away and asked twice exactly what had happened. I realised that they were checking our stories.

Long story short, she was released home to care of GP, prescribed Losartan and Bendroflumethiazide, same as me and she set about losing a lot of weight (at least as much as I have).

But yes, they were initially convinced I was a wife beater and I respected their questions in the circumstances.

 

[theoriginalphantom]

Mini Me mk2 once got hold of a plant that was an irritant rather than poisonous, he may have chewed a bit and then spit it out . I was away from home - although not far away due to the heavy traffic (I was photographing the new forest show) there was no chance of getting home quickly.

Mrs phantom rings the non emergency line for advice , their only concern was where did he get hold of the plant.
kept going back to the same thing, no advice on treatment, nothing about taking him to A&E, GP etc.

it was a plant we later discovered at the bottom of the garden and looks like it had self seeded from a neighbouring plot.

 

[medwaymud]

Have dealt with more than one DV incident where the woman turned on us as we arrested her abuser. Nothing says "thanks" like a few kicks, scratches and a constant stream of abuse.

I hope you charged her with assault then.
Don't you guys have to wear body cameras nowadays ? It should all be recorded there.

 

[enpointe]

With your last sentence, I can understand an individual not stating what may have occurred when they were in the presence of the perpetrator of any violence, but this happened once she was removed from any perceived threat ie in the ambulance and then at the hospital.
As I have stated, it just appears to me that they were going out of their way to find that violence had been committed, especially after being told that nothing had occurred.

Thank you for demonstrating your ignorance

as others who obviously have significant Safeguarding experience whether health /. social services or Policing have explained in their comprehensive replies to you , the number of DV victims who refuse to acknowledge the criminal behaviour of the individual who attacked them is none trivial

 

[dogmeat]

Thank you for demonstrating your ignorance

as others who obviously have significant Safeguarding experience whether health /. social services or Policing have explained in their comprehensive replies to you , the number of DV victims who refuse to acknowledge the criminal behaviour of the individual who attacked them is none trivial

Why aren't you using your normal account?

 

[ColdWarWorrier]

Although not directly patient-facing, as a Helimed pilot I have spent a lot of time with doctors and paramedics who have had to deal with the aftermath of domestic abuse.

This is in no way directed at the OP, but in genuine cases of DV the sentiments expressed by @Saturation are often the same as those quoted by genuine abusers: ‘nothing happened’, ‘don’t know how injuries/marks appeared’.

As far as the actions of the paramedics/hospital staff are concerned, safeguarding is a high priority these days. Take, for example, Granny appearing at A&E with bruising on various parts of her body. It could be a sign of DV, or maybe she’s had a series of falls which she’s too embarrassed to report. In the latter case some help in the way of mobility aids, handrails, stairlifts, etc, may be required. This is also a part of safeguarding.

The one thing crews should not do is take everything at face value. As was mentioned above the cases of Victoria Climbie and Baby P were ignored by many professionals. It was cases like these that brought safeguarding to the fore. It is vitally important that crews take an accurate history of the incident and pass it on, along with any suspicions, to the hospital staff.

Mechanism of injury is vitally important. Knowing, or finding out, what caused an injury helps in treating it. Ambulance crews are often not told the whole story because of perceived embarrassment, like Granny’s falls or because the patient/relative thinks they might have done something wrong or illegal.

I have attended many road traffic accidents where the injured party has sworn blind they were wearing a seatbelt and driving at 29mph, when their injuries and damage to the vehicle suggests otherwise.

 

[Swan Song]

Or injuries that don't match the explanation. In our trust we had a 2yr old girl with severe scalding injuries to her hand. The parents said that she'd tipped a cup of tea over herself.

The injuries showed no sign of splash or splatter but a clear and consistent watermark at the wrist indicating that the whole hand hand been submerged by force up to the wrist in very hot liquid.

Out of interest, what was the outcome?

 

[Danny_Dravot]

Moving forward to meeting current fiancé. When we met I told her everything, as women can check now to see if you have a DV record, and rightfully so. So I was open from the start to let her know so she could decide if she wanted to continue the relationship.

Is this real?

In the name of equality, I assume that men can check if their new beaus are gold-digging, mental, slappers too?

 

[buggrit]

Is this real?

In the name of equality, I assume that men can check if their new beaus are gold-digging, mental, slappers too?

Yes it's called "Claires Law" or the Domestic Violence Disclosure Scheme. I'm guessing men can check up on women too as it just says "partner".

Domestic Violence Disclosure Scheme factsheet

www.gov.uk

 

[Ecosse]

Scary stuff.
Year 2000,, International Euro TKD competition in Stirlingshire. Our lad was Red Belt black tip at 12 years of age.
We could see, as others noted, the Greek Cypriot team had blagged a few of their Black Belts and issued them the same belts. Indeed the Russian team boss smelled a rat had a word with the organisers. They could tell by the warm up techniques and other triggers.
Anyhow, said son went in full pelt as usual and did pretty well against one of them. By this time he was a multiple gold medalist. It seemed to catch the BB out for a couple of rounds until the Greek decided enough was enough and systematically got stuck in, resulting in axe kicks galore and shin attacks that despite guards left his legs swollen & bleeding.
A couple of contacts lifted our lad into the air. The Greek was good...very very good.
Then all Hell let loose, son ditched TKD and hooked the fecker, then belted the living play-ground shit out of him. Instant disqualification to the cacohony of a few hundred onlookers. 2 Russian judges had to pull him off the Greek.
His Master remarked it had nothing to do with TKD, but was the best street fight he'd ever seen. He seemed amused. The Greek got son's medal as well.
Next day ( a Monday) he could barely walk never mind get out of bed. Down to Surgery, full physical, and Mum & I got put through the mill about how it had all happened. Very uncomfortable indeed, despite son telling them the story. It began to look dodgy.
As it happened, Mum had recorded the entire episode on a Sony camcorder, which was clearly dated and was in the glove compartment in our car still.
End of issue once locum GP & nurse watched it.
We had left the competition early, but were told The Greek got laid out later by the Club's top contender.
We sometimes watch that video with a little bemusement....our son finds it hilarious...but then he would.
Went on to be an Army mixed martialist with pretty decent record card. Nutter.....in a quiet introverted way.

 

[wafubustard]

Mrs WB slipped on some gravel and sliced her elbow leaving some gravel in it and requiring an xray. The hospital were the same asking her if I had pushed her etc.
They didn't ask me if she has pushed me off my bike when I required a blue light ride into A&E.

 

[mush_dad]

Out of interest, what was the outcome?

Injury treated. Situation discussed with manager. Safeguarding team notified. From there I don;t know for sure but I believe the SG team reviews it and notifies CIS (Childrens Integrated Services) if appropriate.

FYI All staff (including domestics, HCAs and Porters) have to complete mandatory safeguarding level 1 training to recognise signs of potential domestic or child abuse and flag the situation up with more qualified staff. Some of the case studies we were shown were pretty horrendous.

E.g. (not from my trust BTW)

https://www.bfwh.nhs.uk/onehr/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Safeguarding-Children-Level-2-Workbook.pdf

The following may indicate physical abuse;  Injuries that the child cannot explain, explains unconvincingly or have not been treated  Bite marks or cigarette burns, bruising resembling hand or finger prints  Blunt instrument marks or iron burns  Immersion burns or scald marks  Bruising in immobile babies

 

[TotalBanker]

Mini Me mk2 once got hold of a plant that was an irritant rather than poisonous, he may have chewed a bit and then spit it out . I was away from home - although not far away due to the heavy traffic (I was photographing the new forest show) there was no chance of getting home quickly.

Mrs phantom rings the non emergency line for advice , their only concern was where did he get hold of the plant.
kept going back to the same thing, no advice on treatment, nothing about taking him to A&E, GP etc.

it was a plant we later discovered at the bottom of the garden and looks like it had self seeded from a neighbouring plot.

Im 43 now, but apparently when i was 2 or 3 i ate some of the leaves off my parents rubber plant. Straight down to A&E. Dont know if this still happens but mum swears blind that because then (as i was a small kid) i jumped the queue of everyone who was there), the NHS must therefore still do this (she says). No sidelong questions or anything, got sorted and some advice to remove said plant from my grubby little reach