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An Army of 50,000 ?

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
If they deployed they would be paid though.
This bears further investigation (again!).

During your mobilised service you are paid as per your civilian earnings before mobilisation. Wasn't always thus, but is now. What sometimes gets missed is the effect before and after. Service in the reserves is not always seen in a positive light by employers, and may well act against you in terms of promotion (if employed) and has an impact on the time you can commit to your own business (if self employed).

After mobilisation, you will probably be disadvantaged again as others would have progressed through demonstrating their loyalty to their primary employer, or targeted your clients while you are away.

All of this is known, and accepted, by reservists. Dealing with the effects of mobilisation (whether true voluntary or volunteer to be compulsorily mobilised) to meet a clearly defined capability gap or in case of national emergency is one thing. Being asked to do the same just to prove a point or "equal misery for all" is another matter entirely.
 
Well they wouldn't have to cover a deployment for one year in three, more like one year in five or six. The reality is that some careers are just incompatible with reserve service and I don't think it's the army's job to account for that by allowing people to stay in the reserve, do the weekends but not mobilise.

Those in key specialist roles should obviously be on different terms to the general IA pool.
Erm- what if there isn't anywhere for them to go?

Do you mobilise them to be FTRS for a year anyway, just to prove a point?
 
We can probably drag up some very similar discussions from 2005 onwards on here.

There were the furious “enablers” demanding that the reserve be kept in a special box surrounded by razor wire and laser beams, insisting they should never be called upon. They sort of missed the point that if you have a reserve that you never have any intention of committing, ever, then it isn’t a reserve at all. It is just a waste of resources.

There were others that insisted that if a reservist wasn’t trampling over the crushed masses of regulars to get to the front of every single mobilisation queue then they should be sacked or commit seppuku in shame. They sort of missed the point that a reserve that is constantly committed isn’t a reserve either.

There is a middle ground that should be able to manage escalation and de-escalation of commitment based on need(s).

My own personal opinion is that failing to volunteer to deploy over an extended period (when the demand to fill gaps is there) should come with penalties. The ultimate sanction is SNLR, but interim stages of year in year bounty reduction commensurate to the year on year increase in years 1-5 is a start.

Of course, a good hard look internally to identify any regular personnel outside of your harmony guidelines should be the start point. A business shouldn’t be paying extra for temps while full time employees are dodging the jobs.


Here, Here. I recently attended one of the VC pavestone parades and was shocked to see how many officers wearing 2x Jubilee- TD/TEM and VRSM are working at Horse guards on FTRS. Of course it may be a coincidence that now the bullets have stopped flying, that they find time off from being captains of industry.

I say cut and cut deep into this type even, if the SoS gets his extra 2 Billion it should be spent on the navy (Not that it will go far). This thread is going the way every other one. Just because we have sat in Germany with a large standing Army for seventy odd years does not mean we still have too, despite the amount of jobs for VSO it provides. In years to come, I think that history will record that the biggest changes to our nation and its place in the world of the last fifty years are the crash of 2008 and Brexit, TELIC and HERRICK were a waste of time, no matter how many STABs v ARABs deployed can we please move on there must be twenty threads that have done this to death.
 
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Caecilius

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Erm- what if there isn't anywhere for them to go?

Do you mobilise them to be FTRS for a year anyway, just to prove a point?
Obviously, if there is nowhere for them to go or mobilisations haven't been requested then they stay in the reserve and carry on normal jogging.
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
Here, Here. I recently attended one of the VC pavestone parades and was shocked to see how many officers wearing 2x Jubilee- TD/TEM and VRSM are working at Horse guards on FTRS. Of course it may be a coincidence that now the bullets have stopped flying, that they find time off from being captains of industry.
I did so enjoy being sat next to an RE(v) Colonel at a King John supper (for marshals helping at the Lord Mayor's show) wearing the pacifists Pip, Squeak and Wilfred who made the comment that I obviously needed to get a bit more experience because I wasn't as au fait with petty LONDIST crap as he was!
 
Nimrod MR.1 and MR.2, Hawk.

However, it's very much the case that from the 1960s our ability - or at least willingness - to go it alone on a serious fast-fighty-bomby thing pretty much faded away, though we retain some impressive skills at providing elements like radars, engines, countermeasures...

There's an interesting argument about TSR.2 - it was designed for a similar mission to the F-111, which did get into service... but was a fragile, expensive tricksy beast requiring a lot of maintenance, and a cynic would suggest that its continued production was largely due to the General Dynamics plant being in John Tower's Fort Worth constituency and Tower then being Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee (so if the annual procurement list didn't include some F-111s it didn't pass...)

As one wag put it, the reason the USAF operated so many marks of the F-111 in such a short timescale was that it took so long to find one that actually worked: others described "walking along the flight line, listening to the F-111Ds breaking". Many of the problems stemmed from the navigation/attack package, which was still in the conceptual "it'll fit here and surely everything will work just fine?" phase: I'm not sure we'd have had more success with bringing the avionics in TSR.2 into service in any sensible cost and time frame, nor how much better they'd have endured in service than the notoriously cranky kit in aircraft like the A-6A and F-111A.



We could probably do an all-British fighter in technical terms, but we wouldn't be willing to pay the price in money and time needed...
Mmmm TSR.2..

I think part of the reason for its demise lies at the door of Mountbatten...

Some very good comment about this elsewhere on ARRSE... Another problem was the landing struts made the a/c wobble at the resonant frequency of the human eye, so temporarily blinding the pilot during landing...

A sub optimal outcome, I'm led to believe
 
Mmmm TSR.2..

I think part of the reason for its demise lies at the door of Mountbatten...

Some very good comment about this elsewhere on ARRSE... Another problem was the landing struts made the a/c wobble at the resonant frequency of the human eye, so temporarily blinding the pilot during landing...

A sub optimal outcome, I'm led to believe
Plus the alluded buy of the F1-11.
 
We can probably drag up some very similar discussions from 2005 onwards on here.

There were the furious “enablers” demanding that the reserve be kept in a special box surrounded by razor wire and laser beams, insisting they should never be called upon. They sort of missed the point that if you have a reserve that you never have any intention of committing, ever, then it isn’t a reserve at all. It is just a waste of resources.

There were others that insisted that if a reservist wasn’t trampling over the crushed masses of regulars to get to the front of every single mobilisation queue then they should be sacked or commit seppuku in shame. They sort of missed the point that a reserve that is constantly committed isn’t a reserve either.

There is a middle ground that should be able to manage escalation and de-escalation of commitment based on need(s).

My own personal opinion is that failing to volunteer to deploy over an extended period (when the demand to fill gaps is there) should come with penalties. The ultimate sanction is SNLR, but interim stages of year in year bounty reduction commensurate to the year on year increase in years 1-5 is a start.

Of course, a good hard look internally to identify any regular personnel outside of your harmony guidelines should be the start point. A business shouldn’t be paying extra for temps while full time employees are dodging the jobs.
It also needs a proper understanding of what the reserves are for. IA’s who, while expensive to deploy are cheaper long term and allow a cadre of trained and experienced people who can deploy again or be the second wave/train the third? A dad’s Army home guard drinking club?

Either way, 2003-13 was a decade that showed the best and the worst of the TA.
 
B

benjaminw1

Guest
Because the regulars are drawing a wage to do their job as ordered, which includes deployments when told to go. The TA/AR are meant to be volunteers. If you aren't volunteering to go when you have the opportunity, all you're doing is playing dress up and adding nothing to the army.



And if, for a two year period, you must continue to prioritise your job then leave the reserves. It's not like you're in a position to do more than rock up for the odd field weekend so why should you get paid for doing that?
You don't understand what "Volunteer" means...

Existential threat to the UK - Yes; picking up Regular manning cockups in pointless third world police actions - No...
 
It also needs a proper understanding of what the reserves are for. IA’s who, while expensive to deploy are cheaper long term and allow a cadre of trained and experienced people who can deploy again or be the second wave/train the third? A dad’s Army home guard drinking club?
I think you are seeing all views being expressed here. The only one that is likely to work is the Cold War style drinking club to be used after a prolonged build up in a national emergency.

If you do an analysis of those who did deploy on recent operations you are going to find a lot of self employed, part time employed and unemployed in the mix. No full time employee with family commitments is likely to jump at the chance of being cheap casual labour for a regular unit.

Your first sentence sums it up 'a proper understanding of what the reserves are for', no-one has a clue or any more of clue than what the Regular Army is for.
 
That's arguable. Compare your £60k Reservist to your £20k Regular, over a six month tour and two month workup.


You pay the £40k salary to reservist for those eight months of mobilised service; but you only pay the reservist for a month every year, so they can stay current (working on that 35 MTD per year minimum). Cost over three years: call it £50k.


You pay the £20k salary to the regular, all the time. You house their family, pay into their pension, etc, etc. Just the salary cost over those three years: £60k. Now add three years of subsidised rent, three years of pension contributions.


People are the expensive part of any defence budget, not tanks or planes.

A standing army is an expensive luxury. Let’s agree on that.


Few reserve units could deploy and be effective as formed bodies. Calling up IAs on their civvy wage as toms was an expensive way of doing it (compared to 4 PARA’s gap year programme.

The total amount spent on mobilising and deploying a TA Tom being paid 60k+ is an efficient system that is supposed to have the manpower in the first place. We can dance around hidden costs etc all we like and spend a night full of sophistry and rhetoric. However, paying someone three times what the regular next to them earns is silly. Whilst it may help retention, so would free beers all weekend.
 
I think you are seeing all views being expressed here. The only one that is likely to work is the Cold War style drinking club to be used after a prolonged build up in a national emergency.

If you do an analysis of those who did deploy on recent operations you are going to find a lot of self employed, part time employed and unemployed in the mix. No full time employee with family commitments is likely to jump at the chance of being cheap casual labour for a regular unit.

Your first sentence sums it up 'a proper understanding of what the reserves are for', no-one has a clue or any more of clue than what the Regular Army is for.
Which is fine. I have no problem with people playing Dad’s Army and dressing up in mess kit for an average meal with cheap wine every so often.

But then let’s treat them like dad’s Army , recover some money from the budget and stop pretending to be one army!
 
Which is fine. I have no problem with people playing Dad’s Army and dressing up in mess kit for an average meal with cheap wine every so often.

But then let’s treat them like dad’s Army , recover some money from the budget and stop pretending to be one army!
I don't think it could ever be one, the cultures are just too far apart. Perhaps there could be an IA Reserve which would meet the Regular Army need for cheap and disposable labour. Higher Bounty but a real commitment to deploy on normal Army pay? Might meet the needs of the proposed flexible engagement as well moving from Regular to part time and back again?

Next we need to address the 16K sick and lame in the Regular Army plus the tour dodging lazy who probably account for another 15K that is over half the Army at the moment.
 
My wife was in the TA* in the 90s and it was a glorified drinking club for many. At the first sign of an Op deployment many left in their droves.

To be fair the unit has served with some distinction on a number of tours since with those that remained or joined for a genuine challenge. They bring specialist skills though which should be the domain of most of the TA.

I mobilised with the TA twice as an IA and many of those on the course were a disgrace - failed most physical tests, map-reading was a mystery to most and only the ex-Regs performed to anything like an acceptable standard. I had just a few weeks warning each time and had no problems, the majority of the TA had been preparing for months.

The system needs to make better use of ex-Regs to make up a proper reserve. Pay them to turn up for updating, documentation and admin then pay them the TA bounty if they are deployable. It won't happen because Glasgow haven't got the will or wherewithal to do it and the politicians won't upset the powerful TA lobby.

*Their own GOC described those that would turn up if the balloon went up as the unemployed and unemployable. Their Trg Maj, Reg staff and NRPS all agreed.
 
I know the British Army does decision making based on Cap Badge popularity, polish and a ‘can-do’ attitude, but lets be new-fangled and apply some evidence.

There are approximately 30k trained AR personnel. [1].

There are approximately 2000 personnel deployed [2]; lets suggest that undercounts for what ever reason, and call the total deployed as 3000 to account for the 1 Div activity etc.

Therefore, a member of the AR can deploy one year in ten and sustain the Army’s current OCE plot. That means no Regular deploys, and stays in barracks/trains incessantly, whilst the AR get to go out the door, and at a optempo of 1 year in 10.

I presume that means the AR are actually probably doing their bit as required by the Regular side.

But you know, lets make them volunteer for every two years ans stuff.

If it helps, you could double the deployed number of personnel, keep every Regular in barracks and still keep the AR at an optempo of 1 in 5.


[1] - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/659404/20171001_-_SPS.pdf
[2] - British Army - Wikipedia


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

Caecilius

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
I know the British Army does decision making based on Cap Badge popularity, polish and a ‘can-do’ attitude, but lets be new-fangled and apply some evidence.

There are approximately 30k trained AR personnel. [1].

There are approximately 2000 personnel deployed [2]; lets suggest that undercounts for what ever reason, and call the total deployed as 3000 to account for the 1 Div activity etc.

Therefore, a member of the AR can deploy one year in ten and sustain the Army’s current OCE plot. That means no Regular deploys, and stays in barracks/trains incessantly, whilst the AR get to go out the door, and at a optempo of 1 year in 10.

I presume that means the AR are actually probably doing their bit as required by the Regular side.

But you know, lets make them volunteer for every two years ans stuff.

If it helps, you could double the deployed number of personnel, keep every Regular in barracks and still keep the AR at an optempo of 1 in 5.


[1] - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/659404/20171001_-_SPS.pdf
[2] - British Army - Wikipedia


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Quite. So we have a lot of AR absorbing a decent chunk of the training budget despite not being used and not really likely to be used.

Let's get rid of most of them, slim the organisation down to the numbers we need if we end up back on enduring ops (probably around 10k) and save money that we can then spend on the regular army.

If we do decide that we need a reserve capability for a true 'in case of emergency break glass' situation then fine, but they don't need 28 to 40 RSDs a year and a bounty. That's just burning money if you think you aren't going to use them. Bring them in for one weekend a year and pay them £200 in exchange for a compulsory call up liability if we ever hit a time of true national emergency. It's essentially £200 for doing nothing so I think you'll get a reasonable uptake and that solves your surge problem.
 
Quite. So we have a lot of AR absorbing a decent chunk of the training budget despite not being used and not really likely to be used.

Let's get rid of most of them, slim the organisation down to the numbers we need if we end up back on enduring ops (probably around 10k) and save money that we can then spend on the regular army.

If we do decide that we need a reserve capability for a true 'in case of emergency break glass' situation then fine, but they don't need 28 to 40 RSDs a year and a bounty. Bring them in for one weekend a year and pay them £200 in exchange for a compulsory call up liability if we ever hit a time of true national emergency. It's essentially £200 for doing nothing so I think you'll get a reasonable uptake and that solves your surge problem.
You're Nick Carter and I claim my 5 RSDs!

Don't join the AR when you leave the Regulars, you'll hate it... :D
 

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