AMS-run by Doctors for Doctors?

Discussion in 'Professionally Qualified, RAMC and QARANC' started by dui-lai, May 3, 2004.

  1. Certainly not, Doctors are not all Freemasons you know!

  2. Mmmmmhhhh, I may need time to think this one out!

  3. That might explain my crap postings then!

    0 vote(s)
  4. Bloody hand shaking snotty idiots, of course they do!

  5. Doctors, the only thing worse than a QA!


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  1. Well folks, what do you think? Is it true? Do Doctors run the AMS for their own benefit and screw the rest of us?

    Come on now be truthful! :wink:
  2. well that is a fine question. But seeing as you started it, what is your opinion? or is it just others that you want....
  3. Now you ask.....

    firstly why have we never had a Non-Medical Officer DGAMS when we have lots of ex-RMAS officers in our midst?

    With the current state-of-affairs of our Professions Allied to Medicine (PAMs), there is absolutely no interest from above to try and keep these highly trained folks in!
    Some trades (BMS, X-ray, Clin measurements) all require BSc(Hons) as a pre-requisite to practice. Anywhere else in the Army this gets you a commission.
    Doctors(and Dentists) are given wage rise after wage rise to encourage them to stay in (last one 10%), what about the rest of us? Doctors can't make a decision without a battery of lab/x-rays etc!
    Watch AMS Doctors swan off here and there for this course and that (most not even related to the benefit of the service) and try get on a simple one yourself!

    These are just a few of my whinges. Before you say it ,yes! I am pissed off with them and the state we are in. Mind you the other 2 service medics are just as badly treated, so its not just us the AMS.

    Jealous of them?
    Damn right, just wish someone so high up was looking after me :roll:
  4. Ooops, forgot to say, others can add their opinions as and when they see fit! :wink:
  5. Doctors are a law to themselves always have been always will be. I feel that nothing you say or do will ever change that. But if you treat them like the silverspooned shite that they are you'll never get anywhere, just look at them how they look at you, it soon gets their backs up. hehehe. W#nkers!!
  6. And do not forget the Dentsits who have created a number of wonderful CDP posts close to home ready for retirement. :lol:

    Interesting that those who are up the food chain on retirement now have a job locally on leaving the services and constantly attend formal functions like they are still in.

    I wonder if the GDC would like to hear this - nope they have that saw up as well - anybody tried the whistleblowing route !!!
  7. Historically, I have to agree that medical officers were the chosen ones within the AMS. More recently however, I think the situation has changed somewhat for the better and I think that the playing field is being levelled to the benefit of all those, regardless of background, who aspire to high rank within the AMS. Perhaps however, it might be useful to put a few things in context.

    It should be no surprise that the medical officer "Cadre" has provided all previous DGs. They were and remain the biggest gene pool within the AMS. It is very likely that they will continue to provide the majority of the runners for the appointment of DG. Until relatively recently they were the only ones who were qualified to command the AMS, although I concede there were several who seemed to bypass the niceties of wider military education and training. That said they were the only ones who went to Staff College, commanded units and filled principal staff appointments.

    Things have now changed. The RAMC attracts a significant number of DE officers from RMAS, command and staff appointments are open to those across the AMS who show the aptitude and are recommended and entry to Staff College, is no longer the exclusive preserve of the medical officer. There is still a way to go, but there are an increasing number of non-medical officers (I include, dentists, NOs and MSOs in this category) who will compete in the not too distant future for the most senior positions within the AMS.

    If I might address 2 points raised by Dui-Lai;

    Doctors and dentists may be paid significantly more than other officers within the Armed Forces. Their salaries however, are recommended by an independent body, which takes notice of the salaries of civilian medical and dental practitioners. Service doctors and dentists get parity with their civilian counterparts. In other words they are paid the going rate. If they were paid less they'd walk into higher paid jobs as civilians. Also they are not the only people in the Services that are paid the going rate, think of air crew, bomb doctors and SF.

    Qualification with a BSc (Hons) does not signify the right to the Queen's Commission. There is the small hurdle of RCB before one embarks on a fairly challenging year at RMAS. So holding a BSc does not get you a commission in the Army, ask the Junior and Senior NCOs in the R Sigs, REME and Int Corps, who are also BSc (Hons).
  8. Neanderthal,

    After reading your comments I have to agree with one point in that there may eventually be a non-Medical officer as DGAMS one day but that I feel will not come soon enough and even then I somehow feel he may stumble along the way.

    I personally hope that one day a MSO may be DCDS(Health) and be a challenge to the SG but that I feel will never come!

    Sorry if I sound cynical but I have been around a long time and seen some good MSOs been dumped for MOs who are intelligent idiots.

    These trades in the other branches/Coprs that you mention, do they have the opportunity to commission upon obtaining their BSc(Hons)? The tech branches within the AMS certainly do not. In fact it may take some years before a PQO (Tech commission) becomes available and then it seems to be based on the usual AMS rules for commissioning! Even then the Techs go on to obtain MScs etc, in fact one Tech I know is due to start his second MSc! And their reward for obtaining these quals? Nothing! Apart from the fact that when they decide to leave they will get a damn decent job.

    Now you mentioned pay for Doctors, they get what they are worth. Fine, what about the rest of the Tech trades? PAY 2000 destroyed that. The X factor isn't worth a damn anymore. So where does it leave a young Tech Sgt who can earn up to £3-4K per year more as a civvie? Easily solved, he/she leaves and earns more and the AMS loses a damn good tech that they have just spent 3 years training.

    The main crux of my thread Neanderthal, is that the AMS seems to be self-destructing and nobody seems to be caring. I witness people leaving in droves, nightmare stories of MDHUs(I know I have served there too!), low morale and low/crap pay.

    It seems to me and a few others that those who are at the top of the AMS are only self-serving and damning the rest. One day I hope they wake up and see the results but by then it will be too late.

    Cynical, yes! But what the hell eh!
  9. DL

    As far as I am aware, those ORs in the R Sigs, Int Corps etc with degrees don't automatically commission. Like the AMS they have to wait for a Tech commission to become available, or if they are young enough have a go at RCB.

    I agree that many of the CEGs within the AMS are not well paid and a lot could be done to improve their lot. My contact in the IT tells me that a number of CEGs will be reviewed in terms of pay this year. What does this mean:

    a. It means that the individuals from those CEGs have to sell themselves and their CEGs when they are interviewed. They have to sell the responsibility of the job that they do, its challenges and demands. It is all about presentation; those that present well are the more likely to get a result. It needs to be done professionally and backed up wherever possible with evidence. It is no use just saying that a civilian ODP earns thousands more than a military ODP, there has to be proof. The responsibilities of an AMS Tech have also to compare favourably with their civilian counterparts and with their rank peers across the Army. If for example, we want our Cbt Med Tech JNCOs to earn the same as Inf JNCOs, we have to show that the job is at least as challenging and the responsibilities are at least the same.

    b. It also means that the medical hierarchy has to get involved and prepare the ground for the reviews. It knows what is required to present a good case and it needs to agree and prepare lines to take and an appropriate briefing pack. I truly hope that this is already being worked up, but if there are people out there that care about this, it wouldn't hurt if they gave the IT a prod......

    To return to the main issue of this thread, I'm reasonably confident that we, the AMS will become more egalitarian and meritocratic in terms of higher leadership and management and thus we will eventually see a MSO, Dentist, QA or even an Vet as DGAMS. I'm not sure however that the other 2 services will be as willing as us to embrace such a move. Too many sacred cows to slaughter and glass celings to break there methinks, but perhaps that's another thread....
  10. Neanderthal,

    1 comment from you has given me more information than the AMS has been willing to depart with for months.

    Firstly, I am not advocating "commissions for all", good god if we did that we would be no better than the QAs! Merit is the way forward and recognition of the jobs we do. However with the size some cadres are dwindling down to, commissioning may seem a reasonable retention tool.

    Thanks for mentioning the review of pay. The last time this was done myself and a lot of others felt it was highjacked by the Mafia in grey. I for example do not know of anyone in my cadre being interviewed the last time(and yes I do know everyone as we are small enough!). I hope we will be given ample time to prepare our case!

    Finally, a thanks. As you seem to a person either from the land of the Wicked Witch of the North or in a position of authority, thanks for speaking up, even it opens yourself to the wild rantings from cynics such as myself.

    However much still needs to be done to raise moral in the AMS. I am very much the cynic and still feel that a much needed shake up to restore confidence in the AMS is needed.

    On a lighter note,I also remember a comment somebody made, if the PQWO was going to be given to BuMS( couldn't resist putting that in!) why not give it to the MOs? Pay them accordingly and take away the responsibility of command! Now that would really piss so many of them off!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
  11. It saddens me that a couple of posts provide more info than that coming down the chain. This shouldn't be the case so I guess (I know) we have a corporate comms problem. The problem is where?

    I'm certain that the IT wants us to know what is going on in terms of the development of the AMS but it appears it isn't getting down to T Atkins esq.

    What can be done to improve matters?
  12. It seems even glossy magazines aren't providing the information either! (See DMETA trainers!)

    What may be needed is a fortnightly briefing from COs/2ICs but this I can foresee lasting all of 10 minutes when some COs/2ICs deem it non-worthy of their attention and so it goes downward to the lowly sprog Sub. And what ever he/she says will really make an impression! :?

    No, it needs something that will make even the CMT in the Field unit feel as he/she is being up-dated personally! What about the new RCMOs? Perhaps another tasking for them?

    What ever is used it needs to happen soon, or the drain of the disenchanted will leave us deep in the faecal matter! However if you are taking an interest in the matter, then there may be hope after all :?:
  13. Sorry for delay in response, been away on a business trip. I note your point. I'll test the water with a few chums.
  14. Sorry for delay in response, been away on a business trip. I note your point. I'll test the water with a few chums.
  15. The CE of the DDA recently sent out a letter to explain the rumours that the DDA may be disbanding. I don't have it to hand to quote from exactly but one of the reasons given for getting rid of the agency was -

    NO PUBLIC OR PARLIAMENTARY INTEREST in such a (relatively)small agency.

    ie, nobody else gives a monkeys about us so why should our top brass