Americans were detained and abused by ... whom?

#1
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...ry?coll=la-headlines-world&ctrack=2&cset=true

Two U.S. citizens alleged that they were detained for months and harshly interrogated by Pakistani intelligence and American FBI agents on suspicion of having links to Islamic militants, before being freed without charges and abandoned, blindfolded, on a Karachi street.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4576767.stm

US personnel threatened the men with being sent to the US detention facility at Guantanamo Bay if they did not confess to involvement in terrorism.
It seems to me that Guantanamo plays role of GULAG for American secret services where anybody could be sent without trial.
 
#2
Only without the millions of people, hard labour, inadequate rations and summary executions, eh tovarich?

Leave your moral relativism at U75 please.
 
#3
I thought you said in an earlier post that the chaps who went to the Gulag were not ill treated - KGB.

Oh and Stoat, KGB has a very different outlook to us. Assuming he is a Russkie, one would expect this and indeed benefit from an opposing, and to us, novel point of view.
 
#4
Dont give the spams an idea .Though micheal moore could do with a couple of years on the gulag diet :)
 
#5
Yes, mushroom, but he often comes across as an apologist for vast soviet crimes by comparing them to minor misdemeanors on the part of the West.

He should best remember that the non-death camp part of the Nazi concentration camp system is remarkably similar to the GULAG camps - as people who were imprisoned in both can testify. Some of the deportations done by the Soviets were worse - people were dumped in the tundra with no tools & told to fend for themselves. When they did manage to survive and were re-discovered years later, they were deported again.
 
#6
He'd probably deny that more people died at Buchenwald after the Soviets took over than when the Nazis were in charge. It was kept open as a Soviet run camp until the 1950s
 
#7
stoatman said:
Only without the millions of people, hard labour, inadequate rations and summary executions, eh tovarich?

Leave your moral relativism at U75 please.
Dear Stoatman!

So in your eyes GULAG used by Stalin (died in 1953) for political opressions is sufficient cause, sufficient excuse to create its copy now.

Btw, I'm sure that Saddam with all his 'rape and torture chambers' (if he would not be a fool) now would be regarded as a beacon of democracy (like his Pakistani copy Musharraf).

Main mistake of Saddam: he didn't lick American heels.

PS. What is U75? I suspect that it is place owercowded by dullards. By contrast there are so many real men, that have interesting views and use solted words. I like it.
 
#8
I am not an apologist for the soviet communists (given my background one would not expect me to be). KGB was brought up in a different system, one in which the truth was something that the local commissar spouted. We have been brought up in a system where we only half believe whatever our equivalent of the commissar tells us (church! BBC!). If we think KGB is spouting crap we are all big enough boys to argue the case with him without getting personal.
 
#9
KGB_resident said:
stoatman said:
Only without the millions of people, hard labour, inadequate rations and summary executions, eh tovarich?

Leave your moral relativism at U75 please.
Dear Stoatman!

So in your eyes GULAG used by Stalin (died in 1953) for political opressions is sufficient cause, sufficient excuse to create its copy now.
No, Sergei, that's a total non-sequitur. I think you've made a little linguistic misinterpretation. I was criticising you for even drawing any parallel between Guantanamo and GULAG, which is tantamount to a denial of Soviet crimes.
 
#10
KGB_resident said:
...It seems to me that Guantanamo plays role of GULAG for American secret services where anybody could be sent without trial.
Why don't you fly out there check for yourself? Otherwise, you're coming across as another misinformed misanthrope.

I don't claim the moral high ground with regards to Gitmo. The only reason they're there in the first place is that Castro owns the perimeter, and he doesn't like visitors. Especially ones who like to stir up trouble. The Cubans are the perfect perimeter security for GWOT detainees.
 
#12
stoatman said:
I was criticising you for even drawing any parallel between Guantanamo and GULAG, which is tantamount to a denial of Soviet crimes.
Excellent argument! I accept it. Really scale of violations of human right in GULAG was so huge that Guantanamo is rather summer camp for scouts (moreover there are many scouts in Gitmo).

I understand that it is a hard think to accept argument from opposite side so I make it for you: GULAG, 911 atrocity, war on terrorism are not sufficient ground to violate human rights.

Don't you see an obvious contradiction between words and real actions (in Orwellian style)? In name of promoting of democracy world-wide human rights of concrete persons are violating. In this twisted logic there are two sorts of dictators: 'bad' and 'good' ones.

Now we see very dangerous development. I mean usage of 'good' dictators and their henchmen to detain and torture not foreigners but namely Americans.
 
#13
All the half witted, half brain moron attempts to do, is paint the rest of the free world as bad, and the Soviet Union as good. Sure there Komrade we Americans, Brits, etc make mistakes and don't do things properly. However, they are just that: Mistakes.

Stalin is the worlds number one mass murderer. Period, end of story. That is quite some proud, remarkable acheivement. Something I want to tell my grandkids about...Wake up pal.

The Soviet Union sucked. Communism sucks. Its part and parcel for the collapse of the Soviet Union and the lawlessness which reigns there now.

About the ONLY good the Soviet Union gave the world is: Russian Imperial Stout.
 
#14
Phil306 said:
Sure there Komrade we Americans, Brits, etc make mistakes and don't do things properly. However, they are just that: Mistakes.
Good answer. As you say it was a mistake. Couldn't agree more. I expect that behavior of Pakistani hangmen would be accused by American administration because interests of American citizens are on the first place. No doubt that all involved will be punished. Moreover, these two Americans have right for compensation for unlawul detention and abuses.

Stalin, GULAG... It is a history now like slavery in USA. It would be really a crazy idea to mention slavery in this context.
 
#15
Slavery in the USA, serfdom in the Tsars empire. Neither of them very pleasant, both of them very much of their time and both abolished less than 150 years ago.

One cannot equate slavery or serfdom with Stalin and Beria. The first were just the way it was, Stalin was a jolly nasty chap.
 
#16
mushroom said:
Slavery in the USA, serfdom in the Tsars empire. Neither of them very pleasant, both of them very much of their time and both abolished less than 150 years ago.

One cannot equate slavery or serfdom with Stalin and Beria. The first were just the way it was, Stalin was a jolly nasty chap.
Agreed. Stalin was a cruel dictator. But is there any connection between abuse of two Americans and Stalin? I doubt.

Main question now: is it an isolated case or a model for future? The answer to this question depends on reaction of American Administration.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/s/nm/security_pakistan_usa_dc

Two U.S. citizens of Pakistani descent have been freed after more than eight-months' detention in Pakistan...
...
The Afzal brothers, who were both born in the United States, went missing in August when relatives said about two dozen armed men, who they presumed to be intelligence officers, took them from their home in Karachi.
...
Spokesmen for the Pakistani government and the U.S. embassy could not immediately be reached for comment.
I'm intersting what would be comments (especially form American embassy).
 
#17
Some of these will be deliberate (whether the information or suspicions that were used were correct may be a differant matter). Others are the result of mistakes, such as the case of a British man detained in South Africa at the request of the US authorities.

Why can't people just accept that this is the way of the world following 9/11. The Americans are the undisputed bi-boys now and they are going to carry on doing what they are doing. Other countries can either follow along or end up on their sh1t list. No amount of screaming about it is going to change it.
 
#18
MikeMcc said:
Why can't people just accept that this is the way of the world following 9/11.
So, as I understand you think that USA can use henchmen of brutal dictator Musharraf even against own citizens.

Detained Americans could be extradicted to USA very easily. Why this hasn't been done? Maybe because of 911?
 
#19
KGB_resident said:
MikeMcc said:
Why can't people just accept that this is the way of the world following 9/11.
So, as I understand you think that USA can use henchmen of brutal dictator Musharraf even against own citizens.

Detained Americans could be extradicted to USA very easily. Why this hasn't been done? Maybe because of 911?
They can and do - as they did with Saddam when he fought the Iranians, as they did in Vietnam, Nicaragua, Guatamala, Panama, going even further back to Cuba, etc.

Is it right? Probably not. But it is the way that it is. All countries do this sort of thing when it suits them, it's why we take the p1ss out of politicians for being hypocritical bar-stewards.
 
#20
MikeMcc said:
They can and do - as they did with Saddam when he fought the Iranians, as they did in Vietnam, Nicaragua, Guatamala, Panama, going even further back to Cuba, etc.

Is it right? Probably not. But it is the way that it is. All countries do this sort of thing when it suits them, it's why we take the p1ss out of politicians for being hypocritical bar-stewards.
Absolutely agree.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4305677.stm

Saudi Arabia and Russia come in for heavy criticism in the US state department annual human rights report.
So this phrase should be read this way:

Saudi Arabia and Russia are not enough cooperative with USA about violation of human rights.
 

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