American Military Leaders Want New Iraq Strategy

Discussion in 'Multinational HQ' started by Trip_Wire, Sep 8, 2006.

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  1. Trip_Wire

    Trip_Wire RIP

  2. Interesting stuff, it is without doubt time to rethink.
  3. Informative piece of journalism. Its a shame that some of those quoted want to remain in the shadows but understandable. What is being fought in Iraq, an insurgency or a sectarian driven civil war? Both have their own problems and both have their own strategies. I agree with the thoughts about "pouring concrete" and the possibility of permanent US bases, it does add to the problem. Everyday we lose some of our best and brightest, what for? What is the end game going to produce?

    I agree with the exlusion of Iran and Syria from the equation. Yes they are problematic, but at the end of the day they are neighbours and have a vested interest (for good or bad) in what Iraq will be.

    Sadly we have to leave these decisions to those who wear the long trousers, most of who we have real doubts about.

    Thought provoking article.
  4. Why does this even count as news? I've known that this has been the general sense of the uniformed leadership for damn near four years and have been arguing about it with the likes of Tomahawk 6 (who is purportedly a retired General) for the last year.

    Everybody with stars on their shoulder, with the apparent exception of Tommy Franks and T6 (could they be one and the same?), saw this clusterfcuk coming from a mile away. For most of 2002 the worry in the Pentagon was that it'd turn into another Somalia. It's sadly ironic that right now, they'd probably trade the Iraq debacle for the Somali problem in a heartbeat.

    Trip, what are your thoughts on the matter now that a report from a journo you respect, who has been close to the military since the days of Hal Moore, reiterates the position I've taken? Is it now credible all of a sudden?
  5. Trip_Wire

    Trip_Wire RIP

    Yes, Wha_Dar. it is a thought provoling article, even though it has been stated in many different ways, by many different people both in the military and the on political side.

    I'm sure that there will be changes made in Iraq over the next few months and years ahead. At this particular time, with elections coming up here in November, I have some trouble with articles like this, as one is never is sure, just what this persons agenda, really is and what they are trying to accomplish with it. They all seem to have an agenda, even Joe. I'd like to wait and see, just what happens over the next month or so and after the elections.

    I agree with some things in the article; however not all. Nor do I always put a lot of faith, in a lot of our former generals have to say, especially the politically motivated whiners, that spent most of their careers as staff (officers) weenies and arrse kissers. They seem to have a political adgenda as well.

    I would love to see Iraq handed over to their leaders both Civilian and Military and have them handle their own problems and security. I just don't think they are ready yet. At some point, we'll have to do it though. It may be, that they will never be really ready to run their Country. At some point, we'll have to let them try. :roll:

    We'll still have to turn it over to them. If it turns into a haven, for terrorists like Afganistan was prior to our invasion, we'll have to go back and do it all over again, this time with more boots on the ground and a better plan for the occupation and sealing of borders. Or perhaps, just make a big glass parking lot out of the whole area. (Just kidding.) :)

    What is really laughable to me, is all the new left liberals, that are so ready to tell us what we are doing wrong and taking the ideas put forth by other liberals, as what we should be doing here and there; however, have no real plan(s) to offer, as to how to solve the situation, except to kowtow and kiss arrse too/of the enemies we are fighting. Of course, they also want us to be PC and play by the rules, etc. when the enemy has no ethics, rules or standards. :evil:

    One wonders, why if some of these asshats, were so smart and such great military strategists, etc. why they haven't solved the problem(s) and risen to a commanding postion, instead of being some assclown academic, writing his carp on a computer board. :roll:
  6. Say again, Sgt (Ret'd)?

    Yes, I agree the $64,000 question is "what do we do now"? My latest prediction- barring a miracle there will be no "victory" or "peace with honour" for the US and her erstwhile Ally in Iraq. There will be, one way or another, a withdrawal as the security situation deteriorates further. American power will suffer as a result, America's image will suffer further as a result, America's adversaries will be emboldened and there is nothing you, me, the United States Marine Corps, Santa Claus or the Fairy Godmother can do about it. This was a war of choice, not necessity and there is no getting away from that fact. There were a few very slim opportunities that afforded the coalition to pull it off in the early days, but they were missed. Tactical errors compounded the situation until it reached the point where all that remains is for the US to take the hit that's coming. Unless Congress pulls the plug (which is v. v. unlikely even if the Dems don't fcuk things up again in November) it won't end on W's watch, but you can mark my words, the next guy/gal in the oval office will "cut and run" the first chance they get. It doesn't matter what party they are, they'll be saying to the UN "Yeah, um, sorry about that last asshole we had running the show. Can we talk?" before the ink on the first draft of their first State of the Union speech is dry.

    Sometimes the dragon wins. Deal with it and don't be too disheartened, you'll recover. It'll just take a decade or so.

    However, my colleagues and I, along with the overwhelming majority of senior military officers by and large predicted this quagmire, realized the mistakes as they were being made and saw it as something that could have been avoided. We told you it was going to happen, is it our fault that the people you helped to put in charge decided not to listen?

    You guys had a varsity team- unfortunately for you, it was being coached by a cheerleader.

  7. This, Ladies and Gents, is what we call preparation of the information battlespace. The current US administration is finally admitting that Iraq has been one great big failure and needs to spin an exit for the next election.

    So the current messages (this included, note the source) are designed to realign the "stay the course" crowd so that they fail to notice the fact that everything they have been told by the current administration for the last three years has been lies. This was predicted by an awful lot of people - hell, Shinseki got the boot, didn't that ring any bells ?

    So face the facts, the US administration ignored advice from all over and did something stupid - really, really stupid - and is suffering as a result. Try blaming the morons responsible, not those who tried to warn you.
  8. OOTS,

    Whilst I agree with the majority of response, we (the British Military) seem to be going through an amazing period of 20/20 vision. I was in a meeting today and to a man (all serving) everyone agreed that IZ was fcuked up and AFG was worse. BUT we all told our leaders that it was going to be a clusterfcuk and despite this we still went in but it all the US's fault.

    I seem to remember back in Oct 2002 receiving the bollocking of my life to have the temerity to question my Col about the wisdom of IZ in general and our specific AOR and his very blunt rebuttal of a request for more info on Phase 4.

    Living (working up to 20hrs a day) in a Portacabin near Tidworth for the duration of Telic 1. I have very little idea how robust the debate was, or what level it was conducted at. BUT I have feeling that we weren't quiet as good as we think we were at raising issues up our CoC as we might want to believe with hindsight.

    Whilst we are collectively are more nuanced than the US Forces (IMHO), we still went there, and worse we still ended up under-prepared in Helmand. Yes some of it was the politicians who made the final decision but with the exception of a few brave officers (Boyce & Shinseki) how many people really spoke out? and how many of these were listened to?
  9. Here's my suggestion.

    Up stakes and get haulin' . All great nations are born in Civil War. Harsh? Maybe.
  10. Trip_Wire

    Trip_Wire RIP

    Thia bears repeating unil it seeks into that UK mind!

    "Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
    He knows only The Cause.
  11. I say strategic retreat into Kurdistan and let the Sunnis and Shiites duke it out till they achieve a balance.Iraq NEEDS a civil war so it can reemerge into a state that is more natural.I know it sounds heartless,but the coaltion presence in Iraq is now bordering on being irrelevant.
  12. WTF??

    Trips, Have you been drinking?
  13. Trip_Wire

    Trip_Wire RIP

    No, but I think that the response covers a lot of the whining and defeatist attitudes that prevail here and other treads on arrse.
  14. Damnded right Trip, its time to revive some of the Total War mechanisms, there is no middle ground in this battle.
  15. Try offering some rebuttal of the analysis presented rather then dismissing anything that conflicts with your world view in a negative manner as "whining and defeatist". One surefire way to a military disaster is to ignore what G2 tells you and drive on regardless. You may care to read up on Op Market Garden. Int reports of two Panzer divs in the drop zone were dismissed by the Commander - funnily enough, the phrase "whining and defeatist" may well have been used - and the IntO concerned posted out. And guess what, wishing it was so was not good enough.

    And my way of dealing with that "True Believer" would be to make it easier for him to fight his religious rival (Sunni vs Shia), his neighbour (Iran-Iraq as used to be) than the West. Then he and his kind kill each other off and I go down the pub.

    Finally, I would offer the observation that in general we call the military refusing to do what the politicians tell them to a "mutiny". That's why turning round and saying "Boss, this missions f&cked" is generally discouraged as undermining the chain of command.