Amended Backstop

Conversations with the DUP tend to be one-sided and monosyllabic i.e. No, no, no, no, no, no, no ... and ... no!

Your idea has merit but in the world of realpolitik ... not a snowball's ... with a General Election.
A General Election might be what it takes. And it might be necessary in the RoI too...
 
A General Election might be what it takes. And it might be necessary in the RoI too...
If DUP withdraw their support then a UK General Election will follow.

A general election in the ROI isn't wanted nor needed and with the PR system will produce the same result.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
If DUP withdraw their support then a UK General Election will follow.

A general election in the ROI isn't wanted nor needed and with the PR system will produce the same result.
Maybe it would and maybe it wouldn't, even if it did then it wouldn't happen until after the withdrawal from the Eu
 
The unilateral UK answer is to announce that we apply free trade rules on the internal border with RoI, then it's all Dublin and Brussel's problem if they want to enforce tariffs the other way. In reality I'd apply this to the whole of the EU. It wouldn't cost the UK a penny as we've not collected any tariffs previously and it removes all 'threat' of delays to imports to the UK. Nothing coming into the UK will be any cheaper than it was whether it comes from the EU or has been imported into the EU from outside so even the UK protectionists have limited cause to complain.
U.K. protectionists would have most complaints
 
U.K. protectionists would have most complaints
Protectionists will always complain, they're the same people who despite the lesson of the 70-80's still believe we should be building ships and hewing coal because it's what their grandfathers did; despite the fact it's not what their ancestors were doing only another 3-4 generations back.
 
It doesn't matter, the final arbiter is the Customer. This EORI thing is something you will have to worry about. Why does the EU want to know who trades outside the EU? Their function is to ensure that relevant taxes are collected not who makes the money. But a handle on who may be flouting EU internal regs, should push come to shove, and of course it would open up information that is sensitive to competitors. Naughty naughty that. No complaints to the Commission there then?

No. Transshipment and removal processes are where the goods are not processed but given leave to remain customs free until they leave, normally 30days or it’s linked to IPR. It’s normally for heavy industry due to sailing bookings. The point here is that duty is collected if the declared intent is altered. LI and LEC are normally for big processors and the entry process is dealt with largely by the VAT side. Typically Car manufacturers wit JIT implications, since there are input and out put implications, such as pressing steel functions carried out in other countries. All entries are precleared using route 7. They will also have CT docs issued locally. Nothing here has to change as the counterpart accounting systems in the varying countries do the import process. So actually there’s not much in it.
Consolidations or Groupage of non sensitive such as no excise goods shouldn’t be that affected.
So does happen but again it’s scale

The examples that I previously gave were as follows:

Belfast Port
Larne Port
Belfast International Airport

Cork Port
Dublin Port
Dublin Airport
Shannon Airport

Others can clearly be added...
Going to?

EU27 and 3rd country (including mainland U.K.) ?

The goods will require a manifest, that manifest can be an inspection cert from Irish/Eu customs saying it meets the EU requirements. Not hard is it?
It would require changes to the UCC and other countries would have an advantage over Ireland in the SM & CU

So are we talking a CU of the island of Ireland (NI within EU regulations, ECJ etc etc) ?

With a border in the Irish Sea?

A U.K./EU/NI FTA with Customs SADs required but no tarrifs?

I’m just trying to understand what your proposing


To govern is to chose; they have to make a choice. The status quo is not an option, so what would they like in it's place? That is the conversation that May needs to have with them.
Did you first hear about an party called the DUP after Article 50?

Conversations with the DUP tend to be one-sided and monosyllabic i.e. No, no, no, no, no, no, no ... and ... no!

Your idea has merit but in the world of realpolitik ... not a snowball's ... with a General Election.
You forgot

never never never
 

AT55

LE
Excellent post by @Red Hander

Want to start the new thread because the other one keep going in circles.

Time to find reasoned debate and a solution

The EU says there is no negotiation on the backstop but imho we have to



Absolutely understand it
.
Major difference is that we all (the EU MS) had a Democratic say in it. The UK, Ireland and everyone else helped choose the route the EU has gone done. Personally I disagree with the power of the EC.

Ireland didn’t make any serious attempts to influence the referendum result, imho rightly but on reflection possibly not.

which is reciprocated

300,000 U.K. citizens currently live in Ireland. Traditionally it was probably nearly exclusively one way movement but not anymore.

Economic aid appreciated but also benefital for the U.K. as a a large portion of the money would have gone back into the U.K. in the form of imports from there.



Which is one of the reasons why the backstop and as barrier free access to markets as possible is important to Ireland (and by extension the Eurozone & EU).

It isn’t the only means of access but it is the most often used and it is quicker which is very important. Any customs controls will delay that and disrupt supply chains (including U.K. ones).

It isn’t just an accident of geography though, the U.K. consumer likes Irish produce, has similar diet, likes similar brands, it is also traditional as Ireland has done so for a very long time. U.K. food imports far outstrip their exports... the U.K. obviously currently has to. With regard to food especially freshness and cost is important therefore you will get a better product from your neighbours than from further afield in some regards.


That prospect would be a direct consequence of Brexit once it was voted for. No one wants it but it’s a requirement. There is no ifs or buts it’s a requirement.

Brexit for Ireland is damage limitation. The Only thing which will stop a Customs border of any description on the island of Ireland is NI staying in the CU, common standards, common legislation etc etc. The U.K. doesn’t want that fair enough, so that means a border there is no other option.

Next best think is a EEA/EFTA type deal, which still means a border, but also means the U.K. has to accept legislation etc so that is out.

So that means no deal (and for the time being at least, no U.K.-EU FTA) which is in no one on any sides interests. It isn’t (and shouldn’t be) about political point scoring, taking back control, making the U.K. pay etc it is about continuity of trading with serenity and as far as possible as few barrriers as possible.

Dublin, London and Belfast have to keep strong social, economic and political links for NI’s sake.

The pre-BREXIT (relative) peace in NI, the Stormont Executive (when working), the common ground on many aspects of life on the island Improved everyone’s lot. A rising tide and all that...

The backstop is an attempt to keep a close enough relationship with regard to customs ie a customs union. If the NI only or whole U.K. options for that aren’t acceptable then we should move on.

I’m not going to blame anyone on that we are where we are. But no one wanted a border, the U.K won’t accept the requirements of having no border (as is their right) so that means a border. The one thing everyone agreed that they didn’t want (probably the most agreed part of the whole process) is the one think that will now happen as a direct result. So be it.



I’ll ignore your last sentence, this effect all the EU27 and the U.K. It disportionally effects RoI and is even worse for NI.

There was an article in the paper this week. The small Donegal farmer (who is never going to get AEO status etc), sells his milk to a NI diary (brings tax, money and jobs into the NI economy) - exclusively RoI Sourced - who sells it onto Aldi and Lidl all over Ireland. That diary is going to set up in RoI with a lose to the NI economy.

I don’t speak for anyone but myself but imho which wouldn’t be perfect and would be far from agreeable to all sides.
What is required is for both sides to understand the principled positions and respect while trying to find a mutually beneficial agreement. But some things won’t be agreed upon.

Once the U.K. leaves the CU there will be a Customs border no matter what kind of deal or none there is - Norway, Switzerland, Canada or Russia.

But the major think now is due to lack of time, the businesses and Governments don’t have time to prepare any solution.

So imho (where I say ongoing I mean for infinite unless mutually agreed otherwise):

- 10 year time limited backstop (extendable with mutual agreement to 15 years). Essentially staying in the CU. Anything shorter will lead to insufficient time to prepare

- ongoing common SPS standards, at least up to current EU standards. In everyone’s interests, especially RoI and NI (being part of the U.K.)

- UK to be allowed to stay/join EU agencies (eg EDA, EASA etc) on an ongoing basis where desired

- an independent consiliation & arbititarion (C&A) body for EU-U.K. consultation & disagreements

- UK not represented in EP or EC but consulted on legislation effecting it during backstop or on ongoing issues.

- UK to be allowed negiotate FTAs with 3rd countries but not allowed take effect until backstop ends

- talks to start immediately on a comprehensive free trade agreement between EU and U.K. to take effect when backstop ends

- EU to provide ongoing peace funding to NI

- UK to contribute to EU budget as currently agreed. For the duration of the backstop, possibly to contribute to budget in some areas such as customs, SPS etc

- UK and EU to contribute to immediately set up an ongoing AEO type scheme for small traders and have ongoing recognition for AEO status and much wider adoption to be encouraged

- EU and U.K. to contribute 50% of funds to NI/RoI border infrastructure post backstop

- ongoing reduced admin for Irish goods using U.K. landbridge transits with faster transits

That’s just a few suggestions
To quote the 19th Century Irish politician (after who O'Connel street is named),
"England's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity"
 
So does happen but again it’s scale



Going to?

EU27 and 3rd country (including mainland U.K.) ?



It would require changes to the UCC and other countries would have an advantage over Ireland in the SM & CU

So are we talking a CU of the island of Ireland (NI within EU regulations, ECJ etc etc) ?

With a border in the Irish Sea?

A U.K./EU/NI FTA with Customs SADs required but no tarrifs?

I’m just trying to understand what your proposing




Did you first hear about an party called the DUP after Article 50?


You forgot

never never never
Not a island of Ireland CU but a FTA.

Eire still in the EU CU and NI still in the UK CU.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
I’m just trying to understand what your proposing
I'm looking at solutions to problems that folk seem to think are insurmountable. Nothing cant be worked round if forced. Pretty soon thanks to the Eu there will be certain things forced and one of them will be either changes to Ireland as a whole or to the border.
Moaning and putting obstacles in the way wont change the fact that we are leaving!
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Except the DUP doesn’t see it that way
Frankly as far as Brexit is concerned the DUP have sh1t out, May isn't staying on and frankly isn't bothered, art 50 happens before any election can be called in fact before any no confidence vote can be called.
Even Corbyn wants to leave, he is simply sitting on his hands to avoid being accused by the remain part of his party (The PLP) of assisting with an exit. I suspect that deeply McDonnel wants a no deal as it suits his agenda, goes wrong and his puppet Corbyn can say so, works out well and the protectionists in the Unions will be happy.
 
I'm looking at solutions to problems that folk seem to think are insurmountable. Nothing cant be worked round if forced. Pretty soon thanks to the Eu there will be certain things forced and one of them will be either changes to Ireland as a whole or to the border.
Moaning and putting obstacles in the way wont change the fact that we are leaving!
Depends on the obstacles. Some are hard stops some you can get around.

Some would require changes in 27 countries. That’s not to say that they can’t be made but it is asking a lot.



Frankly as far as Brexit is concerned the DUP have sh1t out, May isn't staying on and frankly isn't bothered, art 50 happens before any election can be called in fact before any no confidence vote can be called.
Even Corbyn wants to leave, he is simply sitting on his hands to avoid being accused by the remain part of his party (The PLP) of assisting with an exit. I suspect that deeply McDonnel wants a no deal as it suits his agenda, goes wrong and his puppet Corbyn can say so, works out well and the protectionists in the Unions will be happy.
That worked didn't it, the Paisleys are where now in Irish politics? Oh yea, dead and irrelevant!
Ian Paisley Snr set up the DUP

They are the largest party in NI (same amount of MLAs as SF but more MPs)

They hold the balance of power on U.K. legislation

They managed to get the backstop being NI only to the whole U.K. there would have been a much better chance of the WA passing with the former.

The next election.... who knows

The next election
 
I'm looking at solutions to problems that folk seem to think are insurmountable. Nothing cant be worked round if forced. Pretty soon thanks to the Eu there will be certain things forced and one of them will be either changes to Ireland as a whole or to the border.
Moaning and putting obstacles in the way wont change the fact that we are leaving!

<Irish eejits>
A sure look Paddy! Aren't we part of the EU now and more powerful than England so we are!
<Irish eejits>
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Depends on the obstacles. Some are hard stops some you can get around.

Some would require changes in 27 countries. That’s not to say that they can’t be made but it is asking a lot.






Ian Paisley Snr set up the DUP

They are the largest party in NI (same amount of MLAs as SF but more MPs)

They hold the balance of power on U.K. legislation

They managed to get the backstop being NI only to the whole U.K. there would have been a much better chance of the WA passing with the former.

The next election.... who knows

The next election
"The people of Ulster say NO!"
More likely how much? Now!
They will be bought off as they have since the gfa!
 
It would require changes to the UCC and other countries would have an advantage over Ireland in the SM & CU

A U.K./EU/NI FTA with Customs SADs required but no tarrifs?
Er no. The SAD is the CT bit. It’s also the entry bit and the stat bit, which is why it’s the SAD. However the entry only affects the dispatching country and the receiving one. Not the intermediate ones. The CT part covers them. So what would be the disadvantage to RoI? The codes needn’tchange And in a FTA there are no duty differentials. So where’s the gripe. What the E.U. might manufacture to disadvantage Ireland is their business.
 

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