Amended Backstop

You specifically said 'short sea' and referred to Belgium, which would involve going via the UK, so yes it would be subject to UK Customs inspection.

On your wider point, what I have proposed is reciprocity. NI and the RoI jointly enforce both the UK border and the EU external border. There is no way that the RoI authorities would be allowed to conduct inspections in NI without reciprocal UK inspection rights in the South. My proposal is a fair, jointly managed and enforced deal.
Short sea as opposed to ocean vessels

so your proposing a Irish/all U.K. CU while Ireland remains in the EU CU. (Which Ireland can’t do as an EU member)

And the joint port checks you refer to?
- Are they between the U.K. and Ireland within that CU? (In which case that means a border in NI)
- are they between the UK/IE CU and the remainder of the EU? (Which means Ireland is outside the EU CU)


It was an FTA (Freight Transport Association) bulletin in the last couple of days that said the EU were doing a reciprocal on the SCMT Permits. I'd have to dig through works emails to find it.

Yes dealine passed last week I think. There has been plenty of notice about it with regular updates from the DVSA

The cabotage reference was more about the rules being flouted by eatern european hauliers. To be fair it isn't their fault, it just isn't enforced properly.

Haven't looked at the allocations for permits tbh. I'll take your word for it!
Prepare to drive in the EU after Brexit: lorry and goods vehicle drivers

Read the “Haulage in the Republic of Ireland”

Someone should tell Westminster that their laws don’t cover RoI because no one told Dublin that ECMTs wouldn’t be required for NI vehicles in RoI.

As it stands currently they will be.

I first saw this in a FTA bulletin which stated this.

There is talk of a 9 month period allowing U.K. trucks into the EU without a ECMT, but not decided yet.


I know; so it is inthe RoI's interest to work with us and not against us.
Absolutely agree, mutually beneficial

Within the capabilities of all parties to deliver (eg desires, EU law etc)

And a workable plan!


You are really doing your utmost to evade and ignore the point. So plain, simple, easy and precise:
The EUs beadle and his servants in Ireland desperately didn't want to collect the taxes from Apple.
His and Irelands masters in Brussels forced him to collect. So Ireland ist truely at the mercy and under the heel of the EU.
They are not very mercyful at all.
No a ruling was made by the Commission, which is being appealed to ECJ.

The point is that the Commission decided that tax on iPhone sales in the U.K. should have been collected by Ireland because HMG didn’t, even though Irish law doesn’t allow it.
 
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Short sea as opposed to ocean vessels

so your proposing a Irish/all U.K. CU while Ireland remains in the EU CU. (Which Ireland can’t do as an EU member)

And the joint port checks you refer to?
- Are they between the U.K. and Ireland within that CU? (In which case that means a border in NI)
- are they between the UK/IE CU and the remainder of the EU? (Which means Ireland is outside the EU CU)









Absolutely agree, mutually beneficial

Within the capabilities of all parties to deliver (eg desires, EU law etc)

And a workable plan!



No a ruling was made by the Commission, which is being appealed to ECJ.

The point is that the Commission decided that tax on iPhone sales in the U.K. should have been collected by Ireland because HMG didn’t, even though Irish law doesn’t allow it.
My proposal is very simple: the island of Ireland is the joint Customs territory of both the UK and the EU. London agrees on behalf of the UK and Brussels agrees on behalf of the EU (Dublin has ceded its say to Brussels). Goods move freely throughout the whole island, so no NI-RoI land border checks, but all goods entering or exiting the island are liable to be checked by either or both parties depending upon destination.
 
My proposal is very simple: the island of Ireland is the joint Customs territory of both the UK and the EU. London agrees on behalf of the UK and Brussels agrees on behalf of the EU (Dublin has ceded its say to Brussels). Goods move freely throughout the whole island, so no NI-RoI land border checks, but all goods entering or exiting the island are liable to be checked by either or both parties depending upon destination.
So Ireland loses direct access to the EU CU

And results in a border in the Irish Sea
 
So Ireland loses direct access to the EU CU

And results in a border in the Irish Sea
The Irish Sea border applies equally to NI, which is fair; as for your other point, not necessarily. If something is produced in Cork, for argument's sake, and is only intended for the EU, then an electronic goods shipment authority should be more than sufficient for it to leave Cork for Zeebrugge direct without it being inspected either by UKBF or yourselves. But, if it is coming via the UK then it would potentially be subject to inspection, although if it was solely intended for the UK market then that could be very light-touch indeed. There are multiple permutations of this, but why should the UK face a more onerous Customs regime for your convenience? Reciprocity is the key to all of this.
 
So Ireland loses direct access to the EU CU

And results in a border in the Irish Sea
As I understand it what @History_Man is proposing would be that goods produced in or imported into the south could freely be moved to the north and vice versa.

Goods produced in or imported to the north could freely move to GB. Goods produced in or imported to the south could freely move to the rest of EU.

The only prohibition would be on tariffless onward shipment of untariffed northern goods to the rest of EU and untariffed southern goods to GB.

A rather elegant solution that allows enforcement at ports only, would give you jammy sods the best of both worlds and would fully embrace the GFA.
 
As I understand it what @History_Man is proposing would be that goods produced in or imported into the south could freely be moved to the north and vice versa.

Goods produced in or imported to the north could freely move to GB. Goods produced in or imported to the south could freely move to the rest of EU.

The only prohibition would be on tariffless onward shipment of untariffed northern goods to the rest of EU and untariffed southern goods to GB.

A rather elegant solution that allows enforcement at ports only, would give you jammy sods the best of both worlds and would fully embrace the GFA.
Correct. Of course, I have absolutely no hope whatsoever that this will ever be considered, let alone adopted.
 
Correct. Of course, I have absolutely no hope whatsoever that this will ever be considered, let alone adopted.
Surely Juncker thinks of little else but seemless Irish borders and his well thumbed copy of the GFA is plastered in a mixture of brandy and cum stains? A little revenue loss for the EU will a small price to pay for his proclaimed passion for continued peace in Ireland.
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
And still, with all the talk of co operation, reciprocity and getting along for the greater good.

We can’t find a system which works better or is more efficient than the one we’ve got.

We can’t even work out something which is vaguely equivalent to what we’ve got. Certainly not something which we can convince ourselves with, never mind our European neighbours.


I’ve just seen the bit where the Corbyn letter has been described as a game changer. That must be an indication of how low things have sunk.
 
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The Irish Sea border applies equally to NI, which is fair; as for your other point, not necessarily. If something is produced in Cork, for argument's sake, and is only intended for the EU, then an electronic goods shipment authority should be more than sufficient for it to leave Cork for Zeebrugge direct without it being inspected either by UKBF or yourselves. But, if it is coming via the UK then it would potentially be subject to inspection, although if it was solely intended for the UK market then that could be very light-touch indeed. There are multiple permutations of this, but why should the UK face a more onerous Customs regime for your convenience? Reciprocity is the key to all of this.

I can see a problem here....

Oi Apple! Stop transhipping all that stuff you make in China through Cork and sticking an ‘assembled in Ireland (honest)’ sticker on it to avoid EU taxes.
 
The Irish Sea border applies equally to NI, which is fair; as for your other point, not necessarily. If something is produced in Cork, for argument's sake, and is only intended for the EU, then an electronic goods shipment authority should be more than sufficient for it to leave Cork for Zeebrugge direct without it being inspected either by UKBF or yourselves. But, if it is coming via the UK then it would potentially be subject to inspection, although if it was solely intended for the UK market then that could be very light-touch indeed. There are multiple permutations of this, but why should the UK face a more onerous Customs regime for your convenience? Reciprocity is the key to all of this.
Absolutely




As I understand it what @History_Man is proposing would be that goods produced in or imported into the south could freely be moved to the north and vice versa.

Goods produced in or imported to the north could freely move to GB. Goods produced in or imported to the south could freely move to the rest of EU.

The only prohibition would be on tariffless onward shipment of untariffed northern goods to the rest of EU and untariffed southern goods to GB.

A rather elegant solution that allows enforcement at ports only, would give you jammy sods the best of both worlds and would fully embrace the GFA.
So NI goods would have free access to the SM



And still, with all the talk of co operation, reciprocity and getting along for the greater good.

We can’t find a system which works better or is more efficient than the one we’ve got.

We can’t even work out something which is vaguely equivalent to what we’ve got. Certainly not something which we can convince ourselves with, never mind our European neighbours.


I’ve just seen the bit where the Corbyn letter has been described as a game changer. That must be an indication of how low things have sunk.
Firstly let me nail my colours to the cross.

The last few years (pre Brexit referendum) all the majority Irish political parties have verbalised a desire for a united Ireland. Nothing actively has been done to progress the issue and imho there is no real desire to. Personally I put it down to 1916/2016 nostalgia and more so to stop Sinn Fein becoming even more powerful in RoI by ensuring voters down stray that far left.

Personally I think it would be nice if non-bigoted, non-sectarian divided, peacefully, economically viable NI decided democratically to join a united Ireland but I won’t lose any sleep over it, if for no other reason than there is a sizeable minority of bigoted sectarians up there (on both sides) who I don’t want my tax to support their social welfare.

With regard to your point

There’s a reason


The whole border thing is mutually exclusive

No border in Ireland would mean goods made in NI (assuming NI stayed in U.K.) would have free access to the common market through RoI.

That would give them an advantage and free access to at least part of the single market.

For that reason they would have to agree to all the necessary EU legislation. Politically (understandably) that’s an issue.

So that the mainland U.K. wouldn’t also have free unrestricted access to the single market a customs border would be required in the Irish Sea. Politically (understandably) that may not be deliverable

That then means all the necessary EU legislation. Politically (understandably) that may not be deliverable

All the above would really mean the whole U.K. would need to remain in the Single Market and Customs Union. Politically (understandably) that may not be deliverable

The other options (EEA, EFTA, Canada etc etc) all mean a border and politically (understandably) they may not be deliverable.

I don’t think the major issue is reciprocal measures.

I don’t think there is going to be major issues agreeing an EU/UK FTA either, so long as everyone keeps there heads.

The major issue is no border and NI leaving the CU are mutually exclusive.
 
Offered a free pass and its rejected immediately.

This is going nowhere. Feck Ireland and the EU, live with the consequences of your arrogant intransigence.
 
Offered a free pass and its rejected immediately.

This is going nowhere. Feck Ireland and the EU, live with the consequences of your arrogant intransigence.
I’m not and it would be the best option

Unfortunately that is actually the backstop and it has been rejected

The backstop was supposed to be NI only, DUP said no.... so it had to be all U.K. ......
 
I’m not and it would be the best option

Unfortunately that is actually the backstop and it has been rejected

The backstop was supposed to be NI only, DUP said no.... so it had to be all U.K. ......
Not talking about that insulting backstop rubbish but @History_Man plan. It would require your EU bezzers to give ground, but you win twice over, so why reject it?
 
The easiest way to resolve this problem would be to treat the whole of the island of Ireland as a Free Trade Area where both UK and RoI goods are in free circulation. But, in order to prevent both the UK's and EU's single markets being compromised, joint UK-EU Customs checks are held at all major ports.
Better still just treat the UK as a Freeport.
 
The unilateral UK answer is to announce that we apply free trade rules on the internal border with RoI, then it's all Dublin and Brussel's problem if they want to enforce tariffs the other way. In reality I'd apply this to the whole of the EU. It wouldn't cost the UK a penny as we've not collected any tariffs previously and it removes all 'threat' of delays to imports to the UK. Nothing coming into the UK will be any cheaper than it was whether it comes from the EU or has been imported into the EU from outside so even the UK protectionists have limited cause to complain.
 

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