Amended Backstop

The Irish border has approx Dover levels of traffic passing through it annually. The difference is the infrastructure is likely to be secure areas, it’s relatively easy to stop a vehicle that you want to stop as it has very limited options on where it can go. The Irish border has approx 300 crossing points and some of them will turn into a network of roads so vehicles can go in any direction within minutes. And it is 300 miles long.

The hubs generally have secure perimeters, warehouses, etc

Remember there will be 2 sides to the border so the EU Customs will be enforced on one side and whatever the HM Customs decide they want to do on the other side.

Typically goods going across a customs
Border are declared twice - in this case when leaving the U.K. and when entering the EU.

Goods arriving into the EU have to be declared at the point of entry that will not change.

It’s 100% YOUR problem.
 
The Irish border has approx Dover levels of traffic passing through it annually. The difference is the infrastructure is likely to be secure areas, it’s relatively easy to stop a vehicle that you want to stop as it has very limited options on where it can go. The Irish border has approx 300 crossing points and some of them will turn into a network of roads so vehicles can go in any direction within minutes. And it is 300 miles long.

The hubs generally have secure perimeters, warehouses, etc

Remember there will be 2 sides to the border so the EU Customs will be enforced on one side and whatever the HM Customs decide they want to do on the other side.

Typically goods going across a customs
Border are declared twice - in this case when leaving the U.K. and when entering the EU.

Goods arriving into the EU have to be declared at the point of entry that will not change.
Granted there are 300 crossing points but how many of them can accommodate vehicles that would be over the
" non-compliance to a tolerable levels " mentioned above by Terminal ?
Those same crossing points were used to smuggle weapons , explosives etc in the past and I feel that the majority of commentators in the media either miss that point or are happy to muddy the waters of an acceptable loss in revenue with the return of terrorism.
Cross border smuggling has been going on since the island was partitioned. There has always been an economic cost.
As for the return to terrorism, dissident republicans were busy carrying out bombings and shootings long before Cameron announced the vote.
 

rifleair

War Hero
Because it is now not 1911 and partition has taken place....
I know that, @irlsgt is suggesting that prior to 1911 Ireland was not united, and that in 1911 some event happened that united the island and it became one country, I would like to know what that event was. Because as I understand it the only thing that happened in 1911 was that the legislation for home rule was announced, some 6 months ahead of its adoption, which following protests never happened!
 
Varadkar should remember

It’s a long way to Tipperarry
But it’s a lot further to Antwerp
 
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ugly

LE
Moderator
A good example is the media hysteria around Dover, ‘the gateway to EUrope’....really? What about the Thames and east coast ports that have massively increased capacity their capacity to serve the. Long sea crossings direct to hub ports like Antwerp, Rotterdam and Hamburg. There’s plenty of capacity if people are given a nudge to think out of the box and use the new routes.
Indeed, Harwich and Lowestoft have both received massive rail improvements to facilitate container shipping. There are a number of rail freight terminals in the Midlands connected to the mainlines and the motorway networks. I know I built one and worked a bit on another.
Dover is a crap solution to any problem, even the Freight terminal at Dollands moor is closer to Folkestone with a half decent motorway connection. Rail is what we should be using to distribute goods across from ports of entry.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
I know that, @irlsgt is suggesting that prior to 1911 Ireland was not united, and that in 1911 some event happened that united the island and it became one country, I would like to know what that event was. Because as I understand it the only thing that happened in 1911 was that the legislation for home rule was announced, some 6 months ahead of its adoption, which following protests never happened!
No again you misunderstand his clear use of the English Language and mangle it yourself, he stated it was united in 1911 not that it wasn't beforehand. It was partition in 1922 which divided Ireland. Prior to 1922 Ireland had existed as one country from at least when we took over.
 

rifleair

War Hero
No again you misunderstand his clear use of the English Language and mangle it yourself, he stated it was united in 1911 not that it wasn't beforehand. It was partition in 1922 which divided Ireland. Prior to 1922 Ireland had existed as one country from at least when we took over.
Mea culpa!
Really should open both eyes when reading replies to others posts!
 
Lowestoft have both received massive rail improvements
Lowestoft in particular never lost it, plenty of sidings still left and yes there's massive improvements going on here, though my view is that another lift Bridge is a bit stupid when a tunnel is needed. However it would be conducive to a better rail freight initiative, not that it doesn't need better road connections.
 
There is a proposal going to Parliament shortly (next week or so I think) to allow UK vehicles to run in to europe without ECMT permits post No Deal Brexit
That's big of them, bearing in mind that the roads run on are the province of the Nations wherein they are. No one is saying that British Hauliers would not be subject to national laws. The sticking point is far more likely to be sabotage of British hauliers by local haulage firms because they think we will now be fair game. If National governments do not get to grips with local issues it could backfire on them.
 
There is a proposal going to Parliament shortly (next week or so I think) to allow UK vehicles to run in to europe without ECMT permits post No Deal Brexit
The EU Parliament in proposing similar reciprocal arrangements. If both UK and EU pass the legislation then Ireland may not go bust in April.

Currently the default is all international haulage requires an ECMT permit to travel to europe, the DfT has spent considerable time and effort chasing hauliers to get their applications in but the amount of permits is limited. Allocation is to those of greatest need so some UK hauliers will miss out.

The point being, both the EU and UK are making serious efforts behind the scenes to allow international commercial traffic to continue. The DfT clearly considers No Deal likely and are preparing accordingly.
They can plan for what they think could happen but a political decision could make that all in vane

The UK is also implementing a UK specific EORI system for submitting customs/safety clearance paperwork. Is Ireland doing the same? Your current EU EORI numbers probably won't be applicable to transport through the UK, unless the UK decides to accept them
Giving that the U.K. could/would be leaving the EORI system the need to have their own system. I know ours currently starts IE.... surely the U.K. has U.K. or similar in theirs which could mean it isn’t required..... just a new system.

No the EU would maintain the current EORI system.

Therefore I assume anyone moving good to/from/through the U.K. would need a U.K. EORI (and same for U.K. within EU)?


The UK has, by changing the front title page of Eu laws on UK statute books to say UK law, already facilitated compliance and cooperation with our soon to be former Eu partners. If however they decide to be silly then whole rafts of Eu laws will be amended to make life easier and more favourable for UK persons in the UK not Eu persons in the UK. The Eu in its proclamations tends to forget things like this and should think long and hard about playing silly buggers.
Sure that’s taking back control ?!

Actually the EU has stated on various issues that we will do x if the U.K. reciprocates.

That's what I was thinking, it was the statement that Ireland was united in 1911, suggesting that something political had happened that I thought strange and wanted clarification on.
Perhaps I should have asked why are there now two capitals!
Do you have to have a sitting Government/Executive or Parliament/Assembly to have a capital ?

I which case Belfast isn’t a capital

But what’s your point?

Absolutely agree.
The port authority At Cherbourg have assured us that in a worst case scenario re EMCT we will trans ship product from our French clients to our trailers en route from jersey in the Freeport area. Ergo we don’t customs wise enter France.
Where there’s a will there’s a William!.
Very good... transit France obviously

Is that in a bonded warehouse??

Because it is now not 1911 and partition has taken place

By extension, a divided Ireland is entirely the fault of Dublin.....
Eh I think you may find that it was U.K. that wanted keep NI in the Treaty negotiations in 1922.

The Ulster Covenant in 1912 was a declaration that NI would take up arms against anyone trying to impose Home Rule from Dublin I’m what is now NI.

The Irish Volunteers was formed as a response to defend home rule.


That's fairly forward thinking on Cherbourg's part. Its a pain in the arse for the Port Authority but a simple way of keeping it going. Not all ports will have the space to allow that on a big scale.

Behind the scenes and minus the political bullshit there is an awful lot of practical and sensible work going on.
We're in the FTA and they are being very pro-active. We get regular and detailed updates from the DVSA

We don't operate internationally so its not really an issue for us but there is no denying that planning is intense and far reaching. It also proves the misleading nature of a lot of the hyperbole in the press.
Both EU institutions and the UK are planning carefully for this, I am not entirely certain all countries are though, Spain seems to be doing jack all and I don't think the Irish are banking on anything other than the EU blackmailing the UK into letting them through

Trade will win in the end, everyone I've talked to in the haulage industry couldn't get two shiny shits about the political aspect and are simply working to make sure trade and transport go on. As far as I can tell the DfT and the DVSA are doing exactly that too.

What might become very interesting is enforcement of cabotage rules....
That blackmail seems to work for the U.K. too.

Legit Trade will find a way absolutely but not seamlessly and not without disruption.

Very one is planning for the worst case, if the worst case doesn’t happen is plan b ready?

Brexit may not effect you directly but there will be knock on effects to all businesses and individuals.

A remote form of customs verification.
????

I think she is beginning to do so.
lets hope so and let’s hope it’s a good one
 
Granted there are 300 crossing points but how many of them can accommodate vehicles that would be over the
" non-compliance to a tolerable levels " mentioned above by Terminal ?
Those same crossing points were used to smuggle weapons , explosives etc in the past and I feel that the majority of commentators in the media either miss that point or are happy to muddy the waters of an acceptable loss in revenue with the return of terrorism.
Cross border smuggling has been going on since the island was partitioned. There has always been an economic cost.
As for the return to terrorism, dissident republicans were busy carrying out bombings and shootings long before Cameron announced the vote.

Well back in the good old pre EEC days, anything under 3.5 tonnes was generally ignored, over that you might get a lazy customs officer to show an interest, but bunging him a tenner usually sorted things.
 
Granted there are 300 crossing points but how many of them can accommodate vehicles that would be over the
" non-compliance to a tolerable levels " mentioned above by Terminal ?
Those same crossing points were used to smuggle weapons , explosives etc in the past and I feel that the majority of commentators in the media either miss that point or are happy to muddy the waters of an acceptable loss in revenue with the return of terrorism.
Cross border smuggling has been going on since the island was partitioned. There has always been an economic cost.
As for the return to terrorism, dissident republicans were busy carrying out bombings and shootings long before Cameron announced the vote.
The Irish Times has a Google street view of most them. And most look like a 40ft truck could use them.

When it comes down to it could be a case of vehicles carrying goods to be told to use approved roads.

What then happens the unapproved roads as enforcement will be required?

I can’t personally see them being blocked as per during the troubles.

Remote surveillance (eg CCTV and ANPR etc) maybe but that’s infrastructure. Possibly not on the border itself but in nearby towns.

A degree of Aerial surveillance (routine patrolling) to aid targeting of particular crossings probably.

Most likely imho very frequent mobile patrolling, snap checkpoints and snap inspections.

For the larger busier crossings.....
 
There is a proposal going to Parliament shortly (next week or so I think) to allow UK vehicles to run in to europe without ECMT permits post No Deal Brexit
The EU Parliament in proposing similar reciprocal arrangements. If both UK and EU pass the legislation then Ireland may not go bust in April.

Currently the default is all international haulage requires an ECMT permit to travel to europe, the DfT has spent considerable time and effort chasing hauliers to get their applications in but the amount of permits is limited. Allocation is to those of greatest need so some UK hauliers will miss out.
I had not heard about the EU reciprocating on ECMTs permits.

What I did hear that thee deadline for applications (to the U.K.) for the post Brexit quota has now passed.

I believe (open to correction) that they aren’t required for cabotage?!

But NI was allocated a total of 80 permits.....
 
What would the vote be like on the WA if the backstop only covered NI i wonder?

Apart from the fact that it would lead to a General Election not too far down the line
 
The Irish Times has a Google street view of most them. And most look like a 40ft truck could use them.

When it comes down to it could be a case of vehicles carrying goods to be told to use approved roads.

What then happens the unapproved roads as enforcement will be required?

I can’t personally see them being blocked as per during the troubles.

Remote surveillance (eg CCTV and ANPR etc) maybe but that’s infrastructure. Possibly not on the border itself but in nearby towns.

A degree of Aerial surveillance (routine patrolling) to aid targeting of particular crossings probably.

Most likely imho very frequent mobile patrolling, snap checkpoints and snap inspections.

For the larger busier crossings.....
Not all of them have to be monitored as individual crossings. As an example if you go a couple of miles back from the border all the traffic that crosses BCP 204 to 209 has to go through one junction. There are lots of other examples where multiple crossings have to go through one chokepoint a little further back.

Monitoring the border is something we have had a bit of practice with. ;)
 
Not all of them have to be monitored as individual crossings. As an example if you go a couple of miles back from the border all the traffic that crosses BCP 204 to 209 has to go through one junction. There are lots of other examples where multiple crossings have to go through one chokepoint a little further back.

Monitoring the border is something we have had a bit of practice with. ;)
Very true so will NI and U.K. except an Irish Revenue customs posts on U.K. soil ?

It is possible of course
 
Very true so will NI and U.K. except an Irish Revenue customs posts on U.K. soil ?

It is possible of course
Agreed; I would established juxtaposed Customs controls at Larne, Belfast, Dublin and Cork sea ports and at Belfast International, Dublin and Shannon airports, jointly staffed by UKBF and RoI C&E.
 
The easiest way to resolve this problem would be to treat the whole of the island of Ireland as a Free Trade Area where both UK and RoI goods are in free circulation. But, in order to prevent both the UK's and EU's single markets being compromised, joint UK-EU Customs checks are held at all major ports.
 

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