Amended Backstop

Excellent post by @Red Hander

Want to start the new thread because the other one keep going in circles.

Time to find reasoned debate and a solution

The EU says there is no negotiation on the backstop but imho we have to

Serious question @irlsgt : Ireland, at various times and under various causes, fought for independence for 700-800 years. Not everyone wanted it but enough did to sustain the fight and to win. The UK now wants to free itself from what is becoming a Europe-wide federal state. With the weight of Irish history behind you (in terms of knowledge) is that not something you understand? Whilst we in the UK may not have supported Ireland's attempts at independence, we at least - even on a human level - understand it. The modern Irish appear not to understand. It is as if the desire for freedom has been sold in return for the EU's money.
Absolutely understand it
.
Major difference is that we all (the EU MS) had a Democratic say in it. The UK, Ireland and everyone else helped choose the route the EU has gone done. Personally I disagree with the power of the EC.

Ireland didn’t make any serious attempts to influence the referendum result, imho rightly but on reflection possibly not.

As you no doubt know, Irish citizens have a pretty unique legal status in the UK. Freedom of movement ; of residence ; to participate in elections, etc. In addition, the UK has at various times provided economic aid to Ireland which prevented the economic ruin thereof. These rights were conferred on the Irish way, way, before the EU existed, in any form.
which is reciprocated

300,000 U.K. citizens currently live in Ireland. Traditionally it was probably nearly exclusively one way movement but not anymore.

Economic aid appreciated but also benefital for the U.K. as a a large portion of the money would have gone back into the U.K. in the form of imports from there.


Ireland is - at present - almost wholly dependent upon the UK for access of Irish goods to the EU. In addition, approx 40% of Irish food is sold to us. This is not by the way the UK's fault - it is an accident of geography.
Which is one of the reasons why the backstop and as barrier free access to markets as possible is important to Ireland (and by extension the Eurozone & EU).

It isn’t the only means of access but it is the most often used and it is quicker which is very important. Any customs controls will delay that and disrupt supply chains (including U.K. ones).

It isn’t just an accident of geography though, the U.K. consumer likes Irish produce, has similar diet, likes similar brands, it is also traditional as Ireland has done so for a very long time. U.K. food imports far outstrip their exports... the U.K. obviously currently has to. With regard to food especially freshness and cost is important therefore you will get a better product from your neighbours than from further afield in some regards.

No one in the UK wants a hard border with the RoI. That prospect is raised only by the Irish. It is very clear that Ireland would be the major loser were that to happen. Ireland would cut off its nose to spite its face, and not for the first time.
That prospect would be a direct consequence of Brexit once it was voted for. No one wants it but it’s a requirement. There is no ifs or buts it’s a requirement.

Brexit for Ireland is damage limitation. The Only thing which will stop a Customs border of any description on the island of Ireland is NI staying in the CU, common standards, common legislation etc etc. The U.K. doesn’t want that fair enough, so that means a border there is no other option.

Next best think is a EEA/EFTA type deal, which still means a border, but also means the U.K. has to accept legislation etc so that is out.

So that means no deal (and for the time being at least, no U.K.-EU FTA) which is in no one on any sides interests. It isn’t (and shouldn’t be) about political point scoring, taking back control, making the U.K. pay etc it is about continuity of trading with serenity and as far as possible as few barrriers as possible.

Dublin, London and Belfast have to keep strong social, economic and political links for NI’s sake.

The pre-BREXIT (relative) peace in NI, the Stormont Executive (when working), the common ground on many aspects of life on the island Improved everyone’s lot. A rising tide and all that...

The backstop is an attempt to keep a close enough relationship with regard to customs ie a customs union. If the NI only or whole U.K. options for that aren’t acceptable then we should move on.

I’m not going to blame anyone on that we are where we are. But no one wanted a border, the U.K won’t accept the requirements of having no border (as is their right) so that means a border. The one thing everyone agreed that they didn’t want (probably the most agreed part of the whole process) is the one think that will now happen as a direct result. So be it.

The question is: what do you want from us? What is the preferred solution which - and thus is important - respects the fact that we are leaving the EU and can't therefore have one part of the UK permanently wed thereto?
Do you not think we have that right, after your yourselves fought for so long for political freedom?!
What on earth would the heroes of Irish liberty make of modern Ireland? 'A terrible beauty is born' my arse. Freedom abandoned for economic COMFORT. Freedom as a meme. The Yellow Ford, Drogheda, Aughrim, The Boyne, 1798, 1848, Easter '16, the War of Independence, The Civil War. What was the point of all that bloodshed? In hindsight we could have bought every Irishman a smallholding and he'd have run from the idea of freedom.
'Ourselves alone'? Yes, apart from your German and French paymasters.
I’ll ignore your last sentence, this effect all the EU27 and the U.K. It disportionally effects RoI and is even worse for NI.

There was an article in the paper this week. The small Donegal farmer (who is never going to get AEO status etc), sells his milk to a NI diary (brings tax, money and jobs into the NI economy) - exclusively RoI Sourced - who sells it onto Aldi and Lidl all over Ireland. That diary is going to set up in RoI with a lose to the NI economy.

I don’t speak for anyone but myself but imho which wouldn’t be perfect and would be far from agreeable to all sides.
What is required is for both sides to understand the principled positions and respect while trying to find a mutually beneficial agreement. But some things won’t be agreed upon.

Once the U.K. leaves the CU there will be a Customs border no matter what kind of deal or none there is - Norway, Switzerland, Canada or Russia.

But the major think now is due to lack of time, the businesses and Governments don’t have time to prepare any solution.

So imho (where I say ongoing I mean for infinite unless mutually agreed otherwise):

- 10 year time limited backstop (extendable with mutual agreement to 15 years). Essentially staying in the CU. Anything shorter will lead to insufficient time to prepare

- ongoing common SPS standards, at least up to current EU standards. In everyone’s interests, especially RoI and NI (being part of the U.K.)

- UK to be allowed to stay/join EU agencies (eg EDA, EASA etc) on an ongoing basis where desired

- an independent consiliation & arbititarion (C&A) body for EU-U.K. consultation & disagreements

- UK not represented in EP or EC but consulted on legislation effecting it during backstop or on ongoing issues.

- UK to be allowed negiotate FTAs with 3rd countries but not allowed take effect until backstop ends

- talks to start immediately on a comprehensive free trade agreement between EU and U.K. to take effect when backstop ends

- EU to provide ongoing peace funding to NI

- UK to contribute to EU budget as currently agreed. For the duration of the backstop, possibly to contribute to budget in some areas such as customs, SPS etc

- UK and EU to contribute to immediately set up an ongoing AEO type scheme for small traders and have ongoing recognition for AEO status and much wider adoption to be encouraged

- EU and U.K. to contribute 50% of funds to NI/RoI border infrastructure post backstop

- ongoing reduced admin for Irish goods using U.K. landbridge transits with faster transits

That’s just a few suggestions
 
This thread actually smells of something between desperation and forlorn hope.
 
At this moment why should the UK be concerned with the concerns of Ireland? You made your choices over a hundred years ago, but have never seemed truly independent.
 
UK to be allowed negiotate FTAs with 3rd countries but not allowed take effect until backstop ends
UK to contribute to EU budget as currently agreed. For the duration of the backstop, possibly to contribute to budget in some areas such as customs, SPS etc
All I can say is Ha Ha Ha

ongoing reduced admin for Irish goods using U.K. landbridge transits with faster transits
Who says that Ireland will be able to use the UK as a landbridge to the EU ? I would let you, but I would also charge you £ 20 Billion a year towards the upkeep of UK roads.
 
The backstop only exists to stop us leaving the EU, even the EU have admitted that one and it's about time Ireland did likewise
 
Excellent post by @Red Hander

Want to start the new thread because the other one keep going in circles.

Time to find reasoned debate and a solution
Cut for brevity.
I don't agree with all you have said but at least you have thought about it sensibly. Little Leo has merely followed orders.
As others have pointed out it appears that the organ grinders have finally turned up and will bin the monkeys, but at present the RoI has a lot of persuading to do as a result of the last 10 months.
 
Excellent post by @Red Hander

Want to start the new thread because the other one keep going in circles.

Time to find reasoned debate and a solution

The EU says there is no negotiation on the backstop but imho we have to



Absolutely understand it
.
Major difference is that we all (the EU MS) had a Democratic say in it. The UK, Ireland and everyone else helped choose the route the EU has gone done. Personally I disagree with the power of the EC.

Ireland didn’t make any serious attempts to influence the referendum result, imho rightly but on reflection possibly not.

which is reciprocated

300,000 U.K. citizens currently live in Ireland. Traditionally it was probably nearly exclusively one way movement but not anymore.

Economic aid appreciated but also benefital for the U.K. as a a large portion of the money would have gone back into the U.K. in the form of imports from there.



Which is one of the reasons why the backstop and as barrier free access to markets as possible is important to Ireland (and by extension the Eurozone & EU).

It isn’t the only means of access but it is the most often used and it is quicker which is very important. Any customs controls will delay that and disrupt supply chains (including U.K. ones).

It isn’t just an accident of geography though, the U.K. consumer likes Irish produce, has similar diet, likes similar brands, it is also traditional as Ireland has done so for a very long time. U.K. food imports far outstrip their exports... the U.K. obviously currently has to. With regard to food especially freshness and cost is important therefore you will get a better product from your neighbours than from further afield in some regards.


That prospect would be a direct consequence of Brexit once it was voted for. No one wants it but it’s a requirement. There is no ifs or buts it’s a requirement.

Brexit for Ireland is damage limitation. The Only thing which will stop a Customs border of any description on the island of Ireland is NI staying in the CU, common standards, common legislation etc etc. The U.K. doesn’t want that fair enough, so that means a border there is no other option.

Next best think is a EEA/EFTA type deal, which still means a border, but also means the U.K. has to accept legislation etc so that is out.

So that means no deal (and for the time being at least, no U.K.-EU FTA) which is in no one on any sides interests. It isn’t (and shouldn’t be) about political point scoring, taking back control, making the U.K. pay etc it is about continuity of trading with serenity and as far as possible as few barrriers as possible.

Dublin, London and Belfast have to keep strong social, economic and political links for NI’s sake.

The pre-BREXIT (relative) peace in NI, the Stormont Executive (when working), the common ground on many aspects of life on the island Improved everyone’s lot. A rising tide and all that...

The backstop is an attempt to keep a close enough relationship with regard to customs ie a customs union. If the NI only or whole U.K. options for that aren’t acceptable then we should move on.

I’m not going to blame anyone on that we are where we are. But no one wanted a border, the U.K won’t accept the requirements of having no border (as is their right) so that means a border. The one thing everyone agreed that they didn’t want (probably the most agreed part of the whole process) is the one think that will now happen as a direct result. So be it.



I’ll ignore your last sentence, this effect all the EU27 and the U.K. It disportionally effects RoI and is even worse for NI.

There was an article in the paper this week. The small Donegal farmer (who is never going to get AEO status etc), sells his milk to a NI diary (brings tax, money and jobs into the NI economy) - exclusively RoI Sourced - who sells it onto Aldi and Lidl all over Ireland. That diary is going to set up in RoI with a lose to the NI economy.

I don’t speak for anyone but myself but imho which wouldn’t be perfect and would be far from agreeable to all sides.
What is required is for both sides to understand the principled positions and respect while trying to find a mutually beneficial agreement. But some things won’t be agreed upon.

Once the U.K. leaves the CU there will be a Customs border no matter what kind of deal or none there is - Norway, Switzerland, Canada or Russia.

But the major think now is due to lack of time, the businesses and Governments don’t have time to prepare any solution.

So imho (where I say ongoing I mean for infinite unless mutually agreed otherwise):

- 10 year time limited backstop (extendable with mutual agreement to 15 years). Essentially staying in the CU. Anything shorter will lead to insufficient time to prepare

- ongoing common SPS standards, at least up to current EU standards. In everyone’s interests, especially RoI and NI (being part of the U.K.)

- UK to be allowed to stay/join EU agencies (eg EDA, EASA etc) on an ongoing basis where desired

- an independent consiliation & arbititarion (C&A) body for EU-U.K. consultation & disagreements

- UK not represented in EP or EC but consulted on legislation effecting it during backstop or on ongoing issues.

- UK to be allowed negiotate FTAs with 3rd countries but not allowed take effect until backstop ends

- talks to start immediately on a comprehensive free trade agreement between EU and U.K. to take effect when backstop ends

- EU to provide ongoing peace funding to NI

- UK to contribute to EU budget as currently agreed. For the duration of the backstop, possibly to contribute to budget in some areas such as customs, SPS etc

- UK and EU to contribute to immediately set up an ongoing AEO type scheme for small traders and have ongoing recognition for AEO status and much wider adoption to be encouraged

- EU and U.K. to contribute 50% of funds to NI/RoI border infrastructure post backstop

- ongoing reduced admin for Irish goods using U.K. landbridge transits with faster transits

That’s just a few suggestions
I agree about ignoring my last sentence. I got somewhat carried away though I stand by the remainder. Not in an anti-Irish sense but from a genuinely not understanding Ireland's position, sense.
I will reply more fully when have digested your points and agree that a solution - based discussion is a good idea.
There is some talk - I think sourced from an article posted by @Brotherton Lad, about May wanting to build a deal with Labour which keeps us in a CU. Problem mainly solved re. the RoI/NI border if that happens, albeit at a great cost to political and societal harmony in the UK (Brexit betrayed, etc).
 
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Gunner82

War Hero
The RoI/UK boarder seems to be policed currently, I was stopped by the Irish customs and had to prove that I lived in the UK otherwise my vehicle was liable to seizure. I was under the odd idea that if we were all chums in the EU you could buy in any EU country without paying any further tax in your own country.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
I'll put some thoughts down later; a couple of the proposals are non-starters though.
This, the customs issue can be done, we need to ask the professionals in the customs trade how to. I'm reasonably convinced it can be worked out. However the natives have long form for ignoring customs rules as tedious inconveniences and this is still taking place.
If the Eu want a border in place then the Eu can sort it out, plan it, pay for it and man it and then watch slab Mk2 and co ignore it as a tedious inconvenience as before.
I still long for the day that Ireland is one country, sadly there seems to be plenty of idiots who would make it impossible to live there. We should of course look at Ireland as if it was Scotland staying in and England and Wales leaving. How would we manage that? If we can work that out then we can surely work out Irelands problems over the border.
Either have a border or not, GB as a whole is reasonably ambivalent to the problem as long as we dont remain in the EU via some dodgy deal.
 
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The RoI/UK boarder seems to be policed currently, I was stopped by the Irish customs and had to prove that I lived in the UK otherwise my vehicle was liable to seizure. I was under the odd idea that if we were all chums in the EU you could buy in any EU country without paying any further tax in your own country.
That’s for VRT. National tax

Something to do with if you spend over a certain amount of time in the State your vehicle has to be registered here
 

no_idea

War Hero
If the UK is in the backstop for 10 (or 15) years then how do we get out at the end of it? What happens on the border then?
 
We should of course look at Ireland as if it was Scotland staying in and England and Wales leaving. How would we manage that? If we can work that out then we can surely work out Irelands problems over the border.
Excellent analogy

Either have a order or not, GB as a whole is reasonably ambivalent to the problem
Probably quite true but.... the tory’s Are dependant on the DUP
 

mrdude

War Hero
The EU don't want to negotiate and either do us hard Brexit types, we voted to leave the EU and be independent again. I don't want a deal either - f*ck giving the EU our tax payers money, so that so rich companies can get richer and the rest of us can become poorer.
I'm all for a border in Ireland - or how else will we keep the foreign hordes out via a 'sneaky backdoor' to the country? But if the EU want it, let them pay for it and sort it out.
 
If the UK is in the backstop for 10 (or 15) years then how do we get out at the end of it? What happens on the border then?
Well it takes about 10 years on average for the EU to negotiate a FTA with anyone (as it is so complicated and needs to be ratified).

That’s why I suggested that period of time.

It gives time for businesses on all sides to know what will be happening and prepare accordingly. It gives time to build the ITs systems, the border infrastructure, etc

To answer your question, at the end of that time the U.K. leaves the CU, there is a property positioned, resourced, as trade friendly as possible border with sufficient controls.
 
The UK is not meant to get out of the backstop.
Did you bother reading anything I said?

I’m suggesting amending the backstop so that it is time limited so that there can be an orderly exit


The money must keep flowing to Brussels.
The U.K. previously agreed to contribute to the current EU budget which runs to i think 2020/21.

If you
I don't agree with all you have said but at least you have thought about it sensibly. Little Leo has merely followed orders.
As others have pointed out it appears that the organ grinders have finally turned up and will bin the monkeys, but at present the RoI has a lot of persuading to do as a result of the last 10 months.
An Taoiseach isn’t following orders

We put those orders on the EU’s table.

The thing many in Ireland would worry is that a border will increase support for Sinn Fein on both sides of the border.
 

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