Alzheimers; a right bastard

Grownup_Rafbrat

LE
Book Reviewer
Well, we are kind of speaking.

My wife has and is being run ragged at the moment, trying to do everything that I should be doing.

Think he may be realising that actually I do want the best for him and mum.

He’s said that nothing has happened, I’ve said we have to clear the air.

Been a very shitty couple of weeks, but nothing good would be served by us getting in a room together too early.
I really hope that the next time I post, things will have moved on further. I really do.
Keep your chin up.
 

wheel

LE
@Schmoe , Steady goes it my friend. Sometime in life we do have reverse a little before we can move forward again. You do have friends here who will offer you support even if its only a sympathetic ear and friendly advice.
 

Schmoe

War Hero
Bit of an update.

Things have been a bit strained until recently, up until a good friend that I don’t deserve had a chat with me about the situation.

He’s given me a bit of clarity, and I now look at my parents as if they are children.
This might seem incredibly arrogant and condescending, but it has allowed me to put into context my Dads behaviour towards me.

My Mum, now is pretty much unable to look after herself, so we now have a chain if we look after him, he looks after her, and we catch anything that gets missed.
This has allowed me to move on from a pretty devastating argument with him.

As I say, I don’t deserve the friendship of the couple who helped straighten my head out, but they certainly have helped me a lot.

Things aren’t quite the same as they were, but they’re heading in the right direction.
This is a long road, and I guess there is going to be quite a few more pitfalls before it ends in its inevitable sad conclusion.

Anyway, that’s enough for now.

Thanks everyone here who has tried to help, sorry if I haven’t responded earlier, not really had the headspace to do so.
 
Bit of an update.

Things have been a bit strained until recently, up until a good friend that I don’t deserve had a chat with me about the situation.

He’s given me a bit of clarity, and I now look at my parents as if they are children.
This might seem incredibly arrogant and condescending, but it has allowed me to put into context my Dads behaviour towards me.

My Mum, now is pretty much unable to look after herself, so we now have a chain if we look after him, he looks after her, and we catch anything that gets missed.
This has allowed me to move on from a pretty devastating argument with him.

As I say, I don’t deserve the friendship of the couple who helped straighten my head out, but they certainly have helped me a lot.

Things aren’t quite the same as they were, but they’re heading in the right direction.
This is a long road, and I guess there is going to be quite a few more pitfalls before it ends in its inevitable sad conclusion.

Anyway, that’s enough for now.

Thanks everyone here who has tried to help, sorry if I haven’t responded earlier, not really had the headspace to do so.
Although it is a different situation and disease.
Over the last year or two I have experienced my mother becoming for all intents and purposes a child that needs looking after.
Fortunatly she is on the very slow road to recovery, but I have resigned myself to wise up that eventually the day will come when she will no longer be with us.
I wish you all the best.
 

wheel

LE
@Schmoe it would appear that your friends are friends indeed and have given you the help and advice that you needed. Your parents do actually require looking after like children. Best wishes my friend.
 
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Did the Alzheimer's journey with Dad a few years back & currently helping Mum, who at 89 has had a major heart attack, with the 2 weeks in hospital leaving her very weak WRT lower limbs.
Been sleeping over & helping her dress/sort out pills/make meals/etc.
I see it as returning some of the far greater amount of time both gave in bringing me up.
 
Did the Alzheimer's journey with Dad a few years back & currently helping Mum, who at 89 has had a major heart attack, with the 2 weeks in hospital leaving her very weak WRT lower limbs.
Been sleeping over & helping her dress/sort out pills/make meals/etc.
I see it as returning some of the far greater amount of time both gave in bringing me up.

"I see it as returning some of the far greater amount of time both gave in bringing me up. "

Exactly. Well said SIr

Good luck and best wishes to you all going through this - and @Schmoe et al - I know this pain and privilege too
 

StBob072

LE
Book Reviewer
Bit of an update.

Things have been a bit strained until recently, up until a good friend that I don’t deserve had a chat with me about the situation.

He’s given me a bit of clarity, and I now look at my parents as if they are children.
This might seem incredibly arrogant and condescending, but it has allowed me to put into context my Dads behaviour towards me.

My Mum, now is pretty much unable to look after herself, so we now have a chain if we look after him, he looks after her, and we catch anything that gets missed.
This has allowed me to move on from a pretty devastating argument with him.

As I say, I don’t deserve the friendship of the couple who helped straighten my head out, but they certainly have helped me a lot.

Things aren’t quite the same as they were, but they’re heading in the right direction.
This is a long road, and I guess there is going to be quite a few more pitfalls before it ends in its inevitable sad conclusion.

Anyway, that’s enough for now.

Thanks everyone here who has tried to help, sorry if I haven’t responded earlier, not really had the headspace to do so.

Thoughts are with you Schmoe.

Please stop saying you "don't deserve help/friends etc.". That's not for you to decide!
 

StBob072

LE
Book Reviewer
"I see it as returning some of the far greater amount of time both gave in bringing me up. "

Exactly. Well said SIr

Good luck and best wishes to you all going through this - and @Schmoe et al - I know this pain and privilege too

I second this.

However, there shouldn't be anything remarkable about what Oddbod said. Most families were brought up in the knowledge that they would be caring for their own parents at the end, what is sad is that so many think it's someone else's responsibility. :-(
 
....Update on Mrs Daves NPH problem.

It's nearly a year since she had the operation to insert a shunt into her brain to drain off the cerebro-spinal fluid and although initially there was a dramatic improvement she has been on a steady, downward spiral in the last couple of months.

Thankfully, her sister is our next door neighbour and she takes Mrs Dave out every morning, which helps me tidy the house, do the washing and generally give me a bit of peace. We also swap stories and view her progress/decline and we are both sure that the situation is not going to get better.

The worst thing is keeping control of her demeanour - all she seems interested in is going to bloody Tescos with her sister. Not to shop, oh no, nothing as simple as that - she wanders around with a trolley looking for anyone to talk to - complete strangers or friends, it doesn't matter, as long as she can chat about illness and she "sucks up" the negative vibes and takes everything inward. Nothing can bring a smile to her face, in fact she lost her sense of humour ages ago. Tesco trips can be very frustrating for her sister who, on occasions, has been left waiting over an hour for Mrs Dave to meet up.

Most evenings Mrs Dave will phone her few friends primarily to sympathise with their illnesses/ family problems/anything to cast a darker cloud over her mind than previous, it seems as though she is taking succour from her situation. After two or three years "using" a smart phone she has now discovered social media and when not talking on the phone she is attempting to master txt speak and text folk, which is another challenge!!

She does random things which frankly just don't compute. For instance, this afternoon she went upstairs (we have rails to help her as she is very unsteady on her feet) and brought a stool down, without using the rails!! When I asked her why she said "just in case anyone comes", however, we have enough chairs and settees to cater for visitors.

We have a board next to her seat displaying the days events, ie, the date AND day, when to take meds, and relatives events, too.....she initially kicked up about that saying that she didn't need it, but promptly started crying when the situation dawned on her.

I have just read back the above and it doesn't seem to portray the seriousness of the situation. She will be off to the local mental health department next month for a meds check up, but that's just a routine visit - her hospital check on the NPH stent will not be for another year so God knows where we will be then.

Sorry to ramble on, but it does seem to lift a weight off my shoulders just writing things down - just to say that, even though NPH is a little-known dementia illness (and is not as severe as the mainstream dementias) it is a bugger to live with.
 
....Update on Mrs Daves NPH problem.

It's nearly a year since she had the operation to insert a shunt into her brain to drain off the cerebro-spinal fluid and although initially there was a dramatic improvement she has been on a steady, downward spiral in the last couple of months.

Thankfully, her sister is our next door neighbour and she takes Mrs Dave out every morning, which helps me tidy the house, do the washing and generally give me a bit of peace. We also swap stories and view her progress/decline and we are both sure that the situation is not going to get better.

The worst thing is keeping control of her demeanour - all she seems interested in is going to bloody Tescos with her sister. Not to shop, oh no, nothing as simple as that - she wanders around with a trolley looking for anyone to talk to - complete strangers or friends, it doesn't matter, as long as she can chat about illness and she "sucks up" the negative vibes and takes everything inward. Nothing can bring a smile to her face, in fact she lost her sense of humour ages ago. Tesco trips can be very frustrating for her sister who, on occasions, has been left waiting over an hour for Mrs Dave to meet up.

Most evenings Mrs Dave will phone her few friends primarily to sympathise with their illnesses/ family problems/anything to cast a darker cloud over her mind than previous, it seems as though she is taking succour from her situation. After two or three years "using" a smart phone she has now discovered social media and when not talking on the phone she is attempting to master txt speak and text folk, which is another challenge!!

She does random things which frankly just don't compute. For instance, this afternoon she went upstairs (we have rails to help her as she is very unsteady on her feet) and brought a stool down, without using the rails!! When I asked her why she said "just in case anyone comes", however, we have enough chairs and settees to cater for visitors.

We have a board next to her seat displaying the days events, ie, the date AND day, when to take meds, and relatives events, too.....she initially kicked up about that saying that she didn't need it, but promptly started crying when the situation dawned on her.

I have just read back the above and it doesn't seem to portray the seriousness of the situation. She will be off to the local mental health department next month for a meds check up, but that's just a routine visit - her hospital check on the NPH stent will not be for another year so God knows where we will be then.

Sorry to ramble on, but it does seem to lift a weight off my shoulders just writing things down - just to say that, even though NPH is a little-known dementia illness (and is not as severe as the mainstream dementias) it is a bugger to live with.
You are describing almost to a T what we went through with my gran many years ago, even to the point of having a board with her life laid out for her to read. It got to a point where she started up the coal fire only to realize it was actually her wardrobe that she had sparked up, it’s heartbreaking to see those you care about spiral down. You do not have an envious task and wish you the best in dealing with the unfortunate hand your wife has been dealt, ramble away, you have more than earned the right to do so.
 

Grownup_Rafbrat

LE
Book Reviewer
....Update on Mrs Daves NPH problem.

It's nearly a year since she had the operation to insert a shunt into her brain to drain off the cerebro-spinal fluid and although initially there was a dramatic improvement she has been on a steady, downward spiral in the last couple of months.

Thankfully, her sister is our next door neighbour and she takes Mrs Dave out every morning, which helps me tidy the house, do the washing and generally give me a bit of peace. We also swap stories and view her progress/decline and we are both sure that the situation is not going to get better.

The worst thing is keeping control of her demeanour - all she seems interested in is going to bloody Tescos with her sister. Not to shop, oh no, nothing as simple as that - she wanders around with a trolley looking for anyone to talk to - complete strangers or friends, it doesn't matter, as long as she can chat about illness and she "sucks up" the negative vibes and takes everything inward. Nothing can bring a smile to her face, in fact she lost her sense of humour ages ago. Tesco trips can be very frustrating for her sister who, on occasions, has been left waiting over an hour for Mrs Dave to meet up.

Most evenings Mrs Dave will phone her few friends primarily to sympathise with their illnesses/ family problems/anything to cast a darker cloud over her mind than previous, it seems as though she is taking succour from her situation. After two or three years "using" a smart phone she has now discovered social media and when not talking on the phone she is attempting to master txt speak and text folk, which is another challenge!!

She does random things which frankly just don't compute. For instance, this afternoon she went upstairs (we have rails to help her as she is very unsteady on her feet) and brought a stool down, without using the rails!! When I asked her why she said "just in case anyone comes", however, we have enough chairs and settees to cater for visitors.

We have a board next to her seat displaying the days events, ie, the date AND day, when to take meds, and relatives events, too.....she initially kicked up about that saying that she didn't need it, but promptly started crying when the situation dawned on her.

I have just read back the above and it doesn't seem to portray the seriousness of the situation. She will be off to the local mental health department next month for a meds check up, but that's just a routine visit - her hospital check on the NPH stent will not be for another year so God knows where we will be then.

Sorry to ramble on, but it does seem to lift a weight off my shoulders just writing things down - just to say that, even though NPH is a little-known dementia illness (and is not as severe as the mainstream dementias) it is a bugger to live with.
We're always here to listen to the rambling if it helps you to offload.
 

mercurydancer

LE
Book Reviewer
....Update on Mrs Daves NPH problem.

It's nearly a year since she had the operation to insert a shunt into her brain to drain off the cerebro-spinal fluid and although initially there was a dramatic improvement she has been on a steady, downward spiral in the last couple of months.

Thankfully, her sister is our next door neighbour and she takes Mrs Dave out every morning, which helps me tidy the house, do the washing and generally give me a bit of peace. We also swap stories and view her progress/decline and we are both sure that the situation is not going to get better.

The worst thing is keeping control of her demeanour - all she seems interested in is going to bloody Tescos with her sister. Not to shop, oh no, nothing as simple as that - she wanders around with a trolley looking for anyone to talk to - complete strangers or friends, it doesn't matter, as long as she can chat about illness and she "sucks up" the negative vibes and takes everything inward. Nothing can bring a smile to her face, in fact she lost her sense of humour ages ago. Tesco trips can be very frustrating for her sister who, on occasions, has been left waiting over an hour for Mrs Dave to meet up.

Most evenings Mrs Dave will phone her few friends primarily to sympathise with their illnesses/ family problems/anything to cast a darker cloud over her mind than previous, it seems as though she is taking succour from her situation. After two or three years "using" a smart phone she has now discovered social media and when not talking on the phone she is attempting to master txt speak and text folk, which is another challenge!!

She does random things which frankly just don't compute. For instance, this afternoon she went upstairs (we have rails to help her as she is very unsteady on her feet) and brought a stool down, without using the rails!! When I asked her why she said "just in case anyone comes", however, we have enough chairs and settees to cater for visitors.

We have a board next to her seat displaying the days events, ie, the date AND day, when to take meds, and relatives events, too.....she initially kicked up about that saying that she didn't need it, but promptly started crying when the situation dawned on her.

I have just read back the above and it doesn't seem to portray the seriousness of the situation. She will be off to the local mental health department next month for a meds check up, but that's just a routine visit - her hospital check on the NPH stent will not be for another year so God knows where we will be then.

Sorry to ramble on, but it does seem to lift a weight off my shoulders just writing things down - just to say that, even though NPH is a little-known dementia illness (and is not as severe as the mainstream dementias) it is a bugger to live with.
Mate, ramble on as much as you wish. If it brings you a small amount of comfort then good. My mother died basically of Azheimers (Kidney infection was the main cause but with incontinence it was a racing certainty it would happen)
 
Here is a piece of information out there for you all, I saw an article on it a while ago and have done a bit of further reading around the subject. It appears that the Pfizer developed drug Enbrel which was developed for arthritis also helps prevent people getting alzheimers. The tale varies from source to source but the basic outline goes along the line's: A Pfizer employee was dong some statistical analysis of arthritis patients receiving the drug and noticed that there were fewer instances of alzheimers amongst the cohort. Further analysis showed that the reduction of alzheimers is in the region knocking on the door of 70%. Why have they not rushed this drug to market with the new found information? Well, their patent run's out soon and it leaves the door open to all the other drug manufacturers to make generics so further R&D on their part would only contribute to the profits of others. The story varies here and there but, the basic premise is that ENBREL helps.

But, there you go, ENBREL. If you are approaching that age and have clicky joints anyway go and speak to your GP about getting it for your arthritis;). Do your own research. make your own minds up, I don't sell the drug.

Pfizer Knew Its Drug Might Prevent Alzheimer’s. They Did Nothing About It

Pfizer Did Not Pursue Possible Evidence of Enbrel Helping with Alzheimer's Due to Low Chance of Clinical Success | BioSpace

Enbrel May Help Treat Alzheimer's
 

ancient

War Hero
....Update on Mrs Daves NPH problem.

It's nearly a year since she had the operation to insert a shunt into her brain to drain off the cerebro-spinal fluid and although initially there was a dramatic improvement she has been on a steady, downward spiral in the last couple of months.

Thankfully, her sister is our next door neighbour and she takes Mrs Dave out every morning, which helps me tidy the house, do the washing and generally give me a bit of peace. We also swap stories and view her progress/decline and we are both sure that the situation is not going to get better.

The worst thing is keeping control of her demeanour - all she seems interested in is going to bloody Tescos with her sister. Not to shop, oh no, nothing as simple as that - she wanders around with a trolley looking for anyone to talk to - complete strangers or friends, it doesn't matter, as long as she can chat about illness and she "sucks up" the negative vibes and takes everything inward. Nothing can bring a smile to her face, in fact she lost her sense of humour ages ago. Tesco trips can be very frustrating for her sister who, on occasions, has been left waiting over an hour for Mrs Dave to meet up.

Most evenings Mrs Dave will phone her few friends primarily to sympathise with their illnesses/ family problems/anything to cast a darker cloud over her mind than previous, it seems as though she is taking succour from her situation. After two or three years "using" a smart phone she has now discovered social media and when not talking on the phone she is attempting to master txt speak and text folk, which is another challenge!!

She does random things which frankly just don't compute. For instance, this afternoon she went upstairs (we have rails to help her as she is very unsteady on her feet) and brought a stool down, without using the rails!! When I asked her why she said "just in case anyone comes", however, we have enough chairs and settees to cater for visitors.

We have a board next to her seat displaying the days events, ie, the date AND day, when to take meds, and relatives events, too.....she initially kicked up about that saying that she didn't need it, but promptly started crying when the situation dawned on her.

I have just read back the above and it doesn't seem to portray the seriousness of the situation. She will be off to the local mental health department next month for a meds check up, but that's just a routine visit - her hospital check on the NPH stent will not be for another year so God knows where we will be then.

Sorry to ramble on, but it does seem to lift a weight off my shoulders just writing things down - just to say that, even though NPH is a little-known dementia illness (and is not as severe as the mainstream dementias) it is a bugger to live with.
Do you have access to some kind of respite care?

When my Mum went downhill she was driving my poor Dad crazy with frustration. After a lot of being leaned on by my sister and I he finally agreed to a trial. Despite his worst predictions it went very well and some of the pressure came off him just for one day a week. Mum enjoyed it as well having other people to talk utter nonsense to and being kept occupied during the day.

Feel free to ramble on. I've posted on here several times. I find it helps me see things more clearly.
 
1) Do you have access to some kind of respite care?

2) Feel free to ramble on, I find it helps me see things more clearly.
1) No, no access to respite care - Sister-in-law and I haven't discussed that yet, mainly due to the rapid decline of Mrs Dave over the last few weeks, which has caught us slightly flat-footed. It's something we will address in the near future. Thanks for the info.

I do escape one morning a week to meet my mate and we discuss all the problems of the world, etc. He's a retired vicar and has a good breadth of knowledge of illness/compassion with his previous congregations, etc. Also, he's ex-TA so he has a similar mindset and is able to share a military humour slant on most unedifying subjects.

2) It really is a release of the safety valve being able to express feelings and situations with the ARRSE community and I always feel uplifted after a good moan (as long as I don't do it too often).

Thanks again to everyone, it's a hard slog, but we'll get to the end of this one way and another. Keep up the good work :)
 
Do you have access to some kind of respite care?

When my Mum went downhill she was driving my poor Dad crazy with frustration. After a lot of being leaned on by my sister and I he finally agreed to a trial. Despite his worst predictions it went very well and some of the pressure came off him just for one day a week. Mum enjoyed it as well having other people to talk utter nonsense to and being kept occupied during the day.

Feel free to ramble on. I've posted on here several times. I find it helps me see things more clearly.

My father and aged step mother are now both in full time private residential care, both with dementia, both with other people to talk to, and mix with. Visiting them is heart breaking, as after first contact, after a few minutes, its" Who are you" and so you go through the introductions again, explaining who their grand children, and great grand children are, where you live, who your wife is etc, after a pause, and a blank stare " Who are you?"
It breaks my heart, this man, one of 11 east end kids, 8 survived, brought up in graces alley, off cable street in London's east end, during the depression of the late 20's, now 92, fought the japs in Burma and Malaya, raised 6 kids, ran a small electrical business in the west end in Carnaby street, friends with Michael grade, billy marsh, max Bygraves, and a host of other luminaries, by dint of working in the west end for 50 years, retired at 72, only beacause my brother and I forced him to, and now, blind, deaf, and racked with dementia. Its a 250 mile round trip to see dad, after 30 minutes its all over, finished, there is nothing more to say, dad nods off,..... its done........ It breaks me up,...... I weep for my father,.......... the last survivor of his big family.
 
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ancient

War Hero
My father and aged step mother are now both in full time private residential care, both with dementia, both with other people to talk to, and mix with. Visiting them is heart breaking, as after first contact, after a few minutes, its" Who are you" and so you go through the introductions again, explaining who their grand children, and great grand children are, where you live, who your wife is etc, after a pause, and a blank stare " Who are you?"
It breaks my heart, this man, one of 11 east end kids, 8 survived, brought up in graces alley, off cable street in London's east end, during the depression of the late 20's, now 92, fought the japs in Burma and Malaya, raised 6 kids, ran a small electrical business in the west end in Carnaby street, friends with Michael grade, billy marsh, max Bygraves, and a host of other luminaries, by dint of working in the west end for 50 years, retired at 72, only beacause my brother and I forced him to, and now, blind, deaf, and racked with dementia. Its a 250 mile round trip to see dad, after 30 minutes its all over, finished, there is nothing more to say, dad nods off,..... its done........ It breaks me up,...... I weep for my father,.......... the last survivor of his big family.
It's bloody heartbreaking isn't it? I absolutely feel for you.

Next month I'm off to Nice to see my Mum again knowing that there is not the slightest chance that she will recognise me. I know also that my Father will ask her if she recognises him, and will beam with delight when she says "Yes".

But she quite clearly doesn't. She's just a really nice person.

She makes no sense, cannot string a sentence together and frequently dozes off in mid sentence. I really hope she's in a good mood. I don't want to travel all the way from South Wales for her to dismiss me off hand as she's "too busy right now to talk" and go back to watching the wall.

I'll stay as long as I can as I'm fairly certain that this will be the last time I see her alive. I know she might go on for ages, but one look at her tells me that she's not long for this world.

I have a six year old daughter who I think I might take along. Partly for the South of France sunshine for a weekend but also to see her Granny, who she knows is very old and her brain doesn't work very well. But I'm in two minds. I think Mum might be delighted but she won't remember once she's fallen asleep that we were ever there.

Any thoughts on that?
 
It's bloody heartbreaking isn't it? I absolutely feel for you.

Next month I'm off to Nice to see my Mum again knowing that there is not the slightest chance that she will recognise me. I know also that my Father will ask her if she recognises him, and will beam with delight when she says "Yes".

But she quite clearly doesn't. She's just a really nice person.

She makes no sense, cannot string a sentence together and frequently dozes off in mid sentence. I really hope she's in a good mood. I don't want to travel all the way from South Wales for her to dismiss me off hand as she's "too busy right now to talk" and go back to watching the wall.

I'll stay as long as I can as I'm fairly certain that this will be the last time I see her alive. I know she might go on for ages, but one look at her tells me that she's not long for this world.

I have a six year old daughter who I think I might take along. Partly for the South of France sunshine for a weekend but also to see her Granny, who she knows is very old and her brain doesn't work very well. But I'm in two minds. I think Mum might be delighted but she won't remember once she's fallen asleep that we were ever there.

Any thoughts on that?




Take the child, she must have family continuity to remember, its her granny, and for all the heart break it will cause you, to her its still her old granny, and who knows, it just might ignite a spark of awareness in your mother. My grandchildren all know who their grand parents are, and on my living room wall is a photo of me a 1 year old, on my great grand fathers lap, I showed this to my 5 year old grandson " This is your great, great, great grandfather, and these other people are all your family". The lad was looking back into history from 1876. I was born in 1950. As I said to my wife, " Half the kids today don't know who their bloody fathers are, let alone grand fathers" All mine do.

All children from about 3 years old retain early memories, even today I can remember living in the old east end back in 1953, Your daughter at some time in the distant future tell her own grand children of her memories of their great great grand mother, the one in France, and so the family line is un-broken through the generations.
 
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4(T)

LE
I have a six year old daughter who I think I might take along. Partly for the South of France sunshine for a weekend but also to see her Granny, who she knows is very old and her brain doesn't work very well. But I'm in two minds. I think Mum might be delighted but she won't remember once she's fallen asleep that we were ever there.

Any thoughts on that?

Giving your daughter some memories of granny is probably a constructive thing to do - daughter will remember the meeting into her adulthood, and it may well help equip her to deal with challenges in her own life (not least, maybe looking after you one day!).

I don't think its worth stressing over what granny thinks, or even taking it into consideration. Granny will probably never even remember the encounter in the future (with Alzheimers they seem to lose the ability to create new memories), and she may well not even understand who grand-daughter is.

My father - living at home with me - is not yet as deteriorated as your mother, but even he shows no sign of thinking about my sister and her son. They live just around the M25, but don't bother visiting. Father remains focussed on movies4men TV channel, and never enquires about family or the outside world. Its very hard for us unafflicted people to comprehend how Alzheimer's victims think and feel; I think much of the time there is just a void there.
 
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