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Altering the system

#1
I am proposing a change to the system and to military law after to comical display after that no mark L/cpl trog that got locked up for being AWOL.

Why not........ If you wake up and decide you don't want to be in the club any more, you walk into your OC/ CO throw one up and say 'its not for me anymore I want out' then 'I no longer want to be part of military law, I relinquish the oath I signed and don't want to play'

They are then, immediately released and fcuked off through the gate. With a bill for any training they received that may time bar them.

To stop young and silly toms booking the system, they be given, on leaving a 30 day cooling off period, where should they return they face the consequences and serve a time under sentence, re governed by military law as they are once more volunteers. Simple, no trials, no press, no media no drams.

This way, we get rid of no marks and back sliders, and those who fcuk up get a second chance should they have made a mistake. Then trog toilets won't get rich from stories to the press, milking the media and whoring the limelight.
 
#3
Personally I agree with that, but I think there would be a duty of care to stupid lads who just did it to get out of a duty, tour, wanted to see girlfriend etc.

I employ people and the second I sense a lack of commitment I want them gone. Many seem outraged at this current case and wondered if the system was at fault and needed altering to stop such needless expense and carry on.
 
#5
Porridge_gun said:
Personally I agree with that, but I think there would be a duty of care to stupid lads who just did it to get out of a duty, tour, wanted to see girlfriend etc.

I employ people and the second I sense a lack of commitment I want them gone. Many seem outraged at this current case and wondered if the system was at fault and needed altering to stop such needless expense and carry on.
And whilst you are watching their backs, who is watching yours?. If they don't want the commitment, then don't sign on the dotted line.
 
#6
squeekingsapper said:
Porridge_gun said:
Personally I agree with that, but I think there would be a duty of care to stupid lads who just did it to get out of a duty, tour, wanted to see girlfriend etc.

I employ people and the second I sense a lack of commitment I want them gone. Many seem outraged at this current case and wondered if the system was at fault and needed altering to stop such needless expense and carry on.
And whilst you are watching their backs, who is watching yours?. If they don't want the commitment, then don't sign on the dotted line.
So are you saying if you want out, just go?

Once you don't want to play soldiers anymore you should just leave?

FWIW I think that should be the case.
 
#7
I don't see the decision as different to the civvy who decides to jack his job, he goes. Why is there a duty of care to a military employees future when there isn't for a civvy.
 
#8
Agree, however there seems to be a differing opinion in the AWOL thread.

AWOL should in my humble opinion be treated the same way, if you jump the fence you break your contract, wages stop, pay back any shortfalls, goodbye........ End of story.
 
#9
It's all too easy these days isn't it? You get in massive debt because you just had to have those holidays abroad and that new motor, the new jacuzzi and the 52 inch TV then you get bored with paying for them, you don't want to alter your lifestyle and stay in so you have the money to pay them so what do you do? You just say bollox and stop paying, make yourself bankrupt or take out an IVA. Oh sure you made undertakings when you wanted the dosh, yeah, you made promises but what the hell you're tired of that now.
Similarly you sign a contract and swear a solemn oath but that's only for as long as you feel like it, isn't it? I mean, yeh you get a regular wage and you have a job when jobs are hard to come by but surely when it suits you, you just drift away? You don't even bother with following the correct procedure, what, all those forms to sign? All that money to pay? I signed because it suited me now it doesn't.
But don't you forget my rights, you make bloody sure my wages are correct and on time every month and that I get all the allowances I'm entitled to. If I'm ill you'd better have a doctor to look at me and you'd better give me free dental care. I want to play s[port so you had better give me time off to play my sport and look after my family and all those petty little admin jobs that mean I have to leave camp.
It's about time people man the feck up and realise that when you sign a contract it is binding both ways. If you're man enough to sign on the dotted line and man enough to accept your wage every month then be man enough to accept that you have obligations and that you can't just walk away from your responsibilities when you feel like it.
 
#10
Let them walk, I would rather have lads that want to be there than disaffected little sh*ts always spreading malcontent at every turn.

However, they walk on the understanding that they have broken their contract and therefore forfeit any gratuity or pension rights

If they are still under a time restriction they can buy out their contract (say £10 per day). The military will have legal rights to claim money from them (at a rate they can afford) until their debt is paid, not unlike the student loan system.
 
#11
Porridge_gun said:
I am proposing a change to the system and to military law after to comical display after that no mark L/cpl trog that got locked up for being AWOL.

Why not........ If you wake up and decide you don't want to be in the club any more, you walk into your OC/ CO throw one up and say 'its not for me anymore I want out' then 'I no longer want to be part of military law, I relinquish the oath I signed and don't want to play'

They are then, immediately released and fcuked off through the gate. With a bill for any training they received that may time bar them.

To stop young and silly toms booking the system, they be given, on leaving a 30 day cooling off period, where should they return they face the consequences and serve a time under sentence, re governed by military law as they are once more volunteers. Simple, no trials, no press, no media no drams.

This way, we get rid of no marks and back sliders, and those who fcuk up get a second chance should they have made a mistake. Then trog toilets won't get rich from stories to the press, milking the media and whoring the limelight.
'twas always so in the better regiments and professional corps, you chock dragger.

Pay your cash, apologise and leave with SNLR on your record.
 
#12
Porridge_gun said:
squeekingsapper said:
Porridge_gun said:
Personally I agree with that, but I think there would be a duty of care to stupid lads who just did it to get out of a duty, tour, wanted to see girlfriend etc.

I employ people and the second I sense a lack of commitment I want them gone. Many seem outraged at this current case and wondered if the system was at fault and needed altering to stop such needless expense and carry on.
And whilst you are watching their backs, who is watching yours?. If they don't want the commitment, then don't sign on the dotted line.
So are you saying if you want out, just go?

Once you don't want to play soldiers anymore you should just leave?

FWIW I think that should be the case.
Hands up, I am no longer serving and when I was in there was the AFG spectre on anyones shoulder. That said, I would like to think that everyone accepted the X factor (as we called it) where you could get posted anywhere and that included NI, the gulf or the balkans.

There were guys back in 1990 who didn't want to man up to their responsibilities and do the job for which they were paid and to be honest, if that was the case I for one didn't want the extra doubt in the back of my mind wondering where or if they were behind me.

I am old fashioned and a man of my word, but a contract in this day and age seems to be worth nothing and at least in my mind if they want out, bill them them appropriately and bin them. At the end of the day, that is what any civvy employer would do
 
#13
we have invested much more in terms of training, cash, housing than any civi employer.

A bloke going awol is part of the section pl and coy group - which after a length of time at unit makes him indispensable, for a number of reasons.
He will have been on courses after arriving at battalion that increase his utility beyond that of an iTC crow.
The strength of the pl and coy at its lowest level is its cohesive nature and morale built on trust, that only develops through time spent in and around each others company.
when a bloke leaves he gets replaced, but the dynamicof the group changes and cmdrs who previously relied on pteBloggs now have a gap that they need to fill because "generic soldier" doesnt exist to a guy who only works with four blokes.

I should drink, either more or less
 
#14
Markintime said:
It's all too easy these days isn't it? You get in massive debt because you just had to have those holidays abroad and that new motor, the new jacuzzi and the 52 inch TV then you get bored with paying for them, you don't want to alter your lifestyle and stay in so you have the money to pay them so what do you do? You just say bollox and stop paying, make yourself bankrupt or take out an IVA. Oh sure you made undertakings when you wanted the dosh, yeah, you made promises but what the hell you're tired of that now.
Similarly you sign a contract and swear a solemn oath but that's only for as long as you feel like it, isn't it? I mean, yeh you get a regular wage and you have a job when jobs are hard to come by but surely when it suits you, you just drift away? You don't even bother with following the correct procedure, what, all those forms to sign? All that money to pay? I signed because it suited me now it doesn't.
But don't you forget my rights, you make bloody sure my wages are correct and on time every month and that I get all the allowances I'm entitled to. If I'm ill you'd better have a doctor to look at me and you'd better give me free dental care. I want to play s[port so you had better give me time off to play my sport and look after my family and all those petty little admin jobs that mean I have to leave camp.
It's about time people man the feck up and realise that when you sign a contract it is binding both ways. If you're man enough to sign on the dotted line and man enough to accept your wage every month then be man enough to accept that you have obligations and that you can't just walk away from your responsibilities when you feel like it.
I don't think that's in dispute MiT, what PG is suggesting is that the contract be changed to allow those who want to take the easy way out to take it. After all do you want that bloke beside you?
 
#15
Whilst I see what you're getting at, it's no way to run an Army, not even a Belgium one and certainly not the British Army.

You suggest paying back their training expenses. Well, that's going to bankrupt a hell of a lot of people now isn't it...
 
#16
All well and good but problems arise when someone in a necessary role jacks it in without any notice and a replacement can't be found in short order. What happens when the MO decides civvy street pays better?

The whole point of giving notice to PVR is to give the impulsive soldier a chance to realise that in civvy street you have to sort out your own food and lodging and a 9-5 working day tends to mean you work for at least most of that time. CQMS, when the army houses an individual there would be a duty of care involved in removing him from that accn; simply telling him to pack his room into this bin bag, carry anything G10 back to stores and pushing him out the gate with nowhere to live would be ethically dubious if not downright illegal.

AWOL shows unreliability and so the individual should not remain in the forces without a damn good reason; once they finish their time at MCTC they should be gone. Pay suspended from the time of absconding.
 
#17
Sign up to do a tour not a length of service.

Once you leave training you will go to theatre in X number of months, if you want to be trained get thyself to Bn, if you dont want to attend trainng and go AWOL, good luck when you get to theatre.
 
#18
Pillager said:
we have invested much more in terms of training, cash, housing than any civi employer.
Nonsence........ how much do you think it costs to train a loggie fork lift driver?

I mean in real terms, not the figures pig thick MOD pencil pusher give.
 
#19
Bravo_Zulu said:
All well and good but problems arise when someone in a necessary role jacks it in without any notice and a replacement can't be found in short order. What happens when the MO decides civvy street pays better?

The whole point of giving notice to PVR is to give the impulsive soldier a chance to realise that in civvy street you have to sort out your own food and lodging and a 9-5 working day tends to mean you work for at least most of that time. CQMS, when the army houses an individual there would be a duty of care involved in removing him from that accn; simply telling him to pack his room into this bin bag, carry anything G10 back to stores and pushing him out the gate with nowhere to live would be ethically dubious if not downright illegal.

AWOL shows unreliability and so the individual should not remain in the forces without a damn good reason; once they finish their time at MCTC they should be gone. Pay suspended from the time of absconding.
Not if it was part of a new contract, if that contract stated that upon short notice termination all accommodation had to be vacated immediately then that's it. Why is the Army responsible for housing an ex employee? No civvy company would be.
 

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