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Alleged SAS War Crimes Report

Mattb

LE
Also I wish you would post all the links for apologies from the MSM when they reported on other such stories - which were proven to be false...
Why don't you?

There was Piers Morgan's Iraqi detainee abuse story and... nope, struggling to come up with any other major fabrications. Go on, do enlighten us.
 

Tongnye

Clanker
you can not seriously blame any SF units no matter what country they serve, for any so called illegal killing or brutality, put the boot on the other foot, the govt decide to slip a troop or two of SF forces into a country whose politics clash with their own, cause a bit of insurrection, arm a few dissidents, the odd squaddie gets killed or wounded,but said actions are covered by the official secrets act,so no acknowledgement for 25 years.A provable example Operation CRE Crown 1963 to 1968,a couple of deaths,supposedly on exercise in BAOR, but the sappers concerned were buried in Pasir Panjang cemetary, and then reinterred in the Kranji war cemetary Singapore, where yours truly discovered the graves in 1991,the govt first admitted to british troops being stationed in Thailand in 1988, if one cares to check Britain Small wars website, man will discover many more minor sneaky pete operations through out the world, where blood was spilt lives lost and FXXX all said or done for the families of the injured or dead, SF do a job that no one else will do, Confucius say do unto others as they will do to you,only do it FXXXXXX First :headbang:
 
I'm wondering if Bob the big time businessman is going to chip in. Generally everything that goes wrong in a regiment is the fault of WOs according to him.

While I do belive that SF SNCOs should have stood up and done something if needed. I question what is the point of having officers if they are never held responsible when they are supposed to be in charge.

Mate, the impetus for the investigation/inquiry came from within the SF units concerned. So while I don't know the ranks of those who said "this is wrong", at least it is being addressed albeit well after the fact. Somewhere back in the thread, possibly the quote from Chris Masters's book, you can see the part played by Maj Gen Sengleman. He is one of those senior officers I know would do the right thing.
 
The part I disagreed with was all your own work (i.e. the last paragraph).
Well disagree all you like. I disagree with you but it doesn't make any difference. As Chris Masters says at the moment it is all gossip, including what you have heard from your 2 Commando mate until the Brereton report is released and if there is evidence to prove criminal charges beyond reasonable doubt. Otherwise its all academic.
 
He is one of those senior officers I know would do the right thing.
So why did Sengleman and his two predecessors as SOCAUST not do anything from 2010 when the allegations started to surface until 2016. Ben Robert-Smith was awarded the VC in 2011 for his actions in June 2010 and a Commendation for Distinguished Service in 2014 for carrying out 50 high risk operations as a patrol commander on his 2012 tour. BRS must have been under scrutiny, especially being a VC holder?
 
I'm wondering if Bob the big time businessman is going to chip in. Generally everything that goes wrong in a regiment is the fault of WOs according to him.
I don’t know why you feel the need to bring me in to this thread, not least because I’ve never suggested that everything that goes wrong in a regiment is the fault of WOs. I’ve simply argued against your constant dripping that everything that goes wrong is the fault of the officers.

The alleged war crimes occurred at the patrol level. The senior leadership can potentially be guilty of a failure of leadership but they aren’t the ones who are alleged to have carried out the crimes.
 
I don’t know why you feel the need to bring me in to this thread, not least because I’ve never suggested that everything that goes wrong in a regiment is the fault of WOs. I’ve simply argued against your constant dripping that everything that goes wrong is the fault of the officers.

The alleged war crimes occurred at the patrol level. The senior leadership can potentially be guilty of a failure of leadership but they aren’t the ones who are alleged to have carried out the crimes.
They should have known about it though Bob. In fact they did know about allegations because the ADFIS attempted to carry out investigations at the time, but senior officers only chose do do something years later.
 
If not already covered, similar accusations were leveled at the NZSAS, after an operation in Afghanistan in 2009. The Government Inquiry exonerated those involved of war crimes but heavily criticised leadership who misled the Minister of Defence. One of those who was questioned at length was based in London until earlier this year; I know him personally and professionally.

The culture seems to be quite different between SASR and NZSAS, even though they often train and fight together. There are some allegations of abuse in the NZSAS but principally concerns surround staffing procedures on this occasion. It seems that the culture within the SASR 'unhealthy' and akin to what has been seen within the US Delta and Seals SOF. The expression was 'too élite to be challenged.'



The background to Op Burnham and the final report:

 
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I don’t know why you feel the need to bring me in to this thread, not least because I’ve never suggested that everything that goes wrong in a regiment is the fault of WOs. I’ve simply argued against your constant dripping that everything that goes wrong is the fault of the officers.

The alleged war crimes occurred at the patrol level. The senior leadership can potentially be guilty of a failure of leadership but they aren’t the ones who are alleged to have carried out the crimes.

It must have been dead easy in your time in the Army, just blame everyone below you.

If officers are aware of bad behaviour and do **** all about it I'd say they were fairly shit, they also encourage others to behave badly because those people know that **** all will happen.
 
They should have known about it though Bob. In fact they did know about allegations because the ADFIS attempted to carry out investigations at the time, but senior officers only chose do do something years later.
Agree entirely. There are two issues here; one the alleged criminal offence of murder and the other the failure of leadership that created a culture where that was acceptable, could be hidden and where rumours were not investigated.

The criminal buck stops with those who pulled the trigger.
 
So why did Sengleman and his two predecessors as SOCAUST not do anything from 2010 when the allegations started to surface until 2016. Ben Robert-Smith was awarded the VC in 2011 for his actions in June 2010 and a Commendation for Distinguished Service in 2014 for carrying out 50 high risk operations as a patrol commander on his 2012 tour. BRS must have been under scrutiny, especially being a VC holder?

I honestly don't know. I left the ARA in 2005. It's conceivable that he initiated a process and then moved on as VSOs tend to. Suffice to say, when I saw his name I felt confident that something was happening.
 
The alleged war crimes occurred at the patrol level.


They should have known about it though Bob.

How, through ESP?

What if the patrol commander is a revered "big personality", goes to extreme lengths to make new patrol members complicit in his actions via "blooding", and does everything possible to create a culture of absolute silence, disguised as "loyalty", within that particular patrol?

You'll recall that it was an attached medic who had the minerals to call them out.
 
How, through ESP?

What if the patrol commander is a revered "big personality", goes to extreme lengths to make new patrol members complicit in his actions via "blooding", and does everything possible to create a culture of absolute silence, disguised as "loyalty", within that particular patrol?

You'll recall that it was an attached medic who had the minerals to call them out.
In a briefing to the regiment, Maj Gen Findlay reportedly asked “there were guys who criminally did something. But can you tell me why was that?” He talked about “trigger pullers” and “names names that come beyond the trigger pullers”.

IMHO leaders can’t eradicate every rotten apple from an organisation. Some will always get through and commit crimes. But effective leaders do set and develop the organisational culture. It seems to me that there has been a significant failure in leadership, probably an institutional failure not an individual one.

It’s going to take a long time to put right.
 
Looks like I've got two of the excuses in posts made - can someone round it off with the third? Ta.
 

Caecilius

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
probably an institutional failure not an individual one.

This seems to be the prevailing view within the aussie army. Their CDS (ex SASR) has taken a number of steps to change the culture within SASR, including forcing the unit into the same uniforms as the rest of the Australian army and banning 'aggressive' insignia such as the 2 Sqn bush ranger and the E troop skull and cross bones.

I'm told that the appointment of Findlay as SOCAUST was specifically because he hadn't spent much time in SASR and was therefore less tainted by unit culture than others. Not sure how true that part is, but it seems to be a fairly commonly held view within SASR.
 
This seems to be the prevailing view within the aussie army. Their CDS (ex SASR) has taken a number of steps to change the culture within SASR, including forcing the unit into the same uniforms as the rest of the Australian army and banning 'aggressive' insignia such as the 2 Sqn bush ranger and the E troop skull and cross bones.

Wow, that will rein in any potential murderers.
 

Caecilius

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Wow, that will rein in any potential murderers.

It's part of forcing a culture change, not an answer in itself. Personally I'm not convinced it'll make much difference but I get the logic behind it.
 

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