All Roles Now Open To Females

Brotherton Lad

LE
Kit Reviewer
So . . . We're doing it, but we don't know then implications. What could go wrong?
All sorts of things. Hence the research.

One interesting finding so far concerns stress levels before arriving at RMAS. Women tend to get stressed several months out and this gradual increases whereas the men tend to bimble along as usual before accelerating into the stratosphere as Ironing Board Sunday looms.
 
Fitness. standards constantly change (read reduce), it’s a fact of life. In my career alone we went from doing a BFT in boots to trainers and know to a reduced distance/increased time. We also had a fitness assessment that included pull ups, which was phased out.

We went from a CFT that had a climb, jump and carry to the AFT with just the walk. We introduced OFT to recognise that different roles required different metrics! We now have PES.

In fact, dare I say, there are soldiers who have done a whole career and retired, meeting lower minimum standards than I had to, complaining about the lowering of standards ^~

I have no idea if these changes are solely to do with females, a decreasingly fit society in general, scientific advances and the ethos of ‘train in’. I suspect all and other factors have an influence.

One thing I can say as fact though, is that since the employment of females in the RE, the entrance test has not been adjusted or manipulated, the 40kg bag lift, remained extant, regardless of numbers.

On average the Sappers have taken less than 9 females a year for the last 10 years, due mainly to the bag lift. Therefore, in at least one part of the Army the entry standards have been enforced. I have no reason to believe (nor have I witnessed) there will be a rush to Ignore them in GCC.

of course, enforcement of standards, and the standards themselves are two separate issues:)
 

Brotherton Lad

LE
Kit Reviewer
I'd say the standards currently set for GCC (which are even higher for Para/16AAB) are demanding, such that many men who otherwise might have joined the Infantry won't be able to meet them:


As said up-thread I don't expect many women to be able to do that, but if they can, more power to their elbow. It does seem a mountain is being made of a mole-hill. As for the 'We used to run in denims, boots and puttees but only after we'd licked the parade square with us tongues to the RSM's exacting standards' brigade, the less said the better.
 

Kefi

Clanker
Fitness. standards constantly change (read reduce), it’s a fact of life. In my career alone we went from doing a BFT in boots to trainers and know to a reduced distance/increased time. We also had a fitness assessment that included pull ups, which was phased out.

We went from a CFT that had a climb, jump and carry to the AFT with just the walk. We introduced OFT to recognise that different roles required different metrics! We now have PES.

In fact, dare I say, there are soldiers who have done a whole career and retired, meeting lower minimum standards than I had to, complaining about the lowering of standards ^~

I have no idea if these changes are solely to do with females, a decreasingly fit society in general, scientific advances and the ethos of ‘train in’. I suspect all and other factors have an influence.

One thing I can say as fact though, is that since the employment of females in the RE, the entrance test has not been adjusted or manipulated, the 40kg bag lift, remained extant, regardless of numbers.

On average the Sappers have taken less than 9 females a year for the last 10 years, due mainly to the bag lift. Therefore, in at least one part of the Army the entry standards have been enforced. I have no reason to believe (nor have I witnessed) there will be a rush to Ignore them in GCC.

of course, enforcement of standards, and the standards themselves are two separate issues:)

Very well put, & as always you give food for thought CAARPS, & i agree there is a constant change in the way fitness is assessed. It's ok to play around with the tests as long as it is arduous & pushes the individual to their limits, simulating combat expectations. The GCC units must be harder than the suport arms & must maintain the ethos of train hard fight easy. Its good the RE have maintained the lift test & it clearly ensures that the right people get in the door.

Here is a timely Forces news report that graphically shows that the GCC are still carrying meg amounts of wight.
 
@CAARPS just out of interest what does the 40kg bag lift entail? Lifting a bag onto a platform, picking it up and carrying it x yards or what.
It’s the old test, static power bag lift to 1.45m. 15, 20, 25, 30, 35 & 40kg in turn. It was the entry point. By the end of combat engineering training soldiers will be building Medium Girder Bridges (MGB).

A top panel is 175kg, 4 person lift (44Kg each) and on a double story has to be lifted above head height.

Like I said, now defunct in favour of the new tests.
 

Brotherton Lad

LE
Kit Reviewer
It’s the old test, static power bag lift to 1.45m. 15, 20, 25, 30, 35 & 40kg in turn. It was the entry point. By the end of combat engineering training soldiers will be building Medium Girder Bridges (MGB).

A top panel is 175kg, 4 person lift (44Kg each) and on a double story has to be lifted above head height.

Like I said, now defunct in favour of the new tests.

Hands on. Lift up!
 
It’s the old test, static power bag lift to 1.45m. 15, 20, 25, 30, 35 & 40kg in turn. It was the entry point. By the end of combat engineering training soldiers will be building Medium Girder Bridges (MGB).

A top panel is 175kg, 4 person lift (44Kg each) and on a double story has to be lifted above head height.

Like I said, now defunct in favour of the new tests.
Thank you for that, I shall ask my daughter what she thinks as to the difficulty, given she chucks weights about for rowing she may have some idea as to how hard it is.
 
What even giving the smear tests to the under 30 pretty ladies*?
In my day the Ladies were in the WRAC & we got on with the job.
Now it is everyone is pc & lgbt trained & its a writing board no colour.


*Note: Some jobs surely are still given out on gender lines?
 
Thank you for that, I shall ask my daughter what she thinks as to the difficulty, given she chucks weights about for rowing she may have some idea as to how hard it is.
I know the lunatics are going to come flooding back to the asylum with the following :)

But I reckon it rather depends on whether your daughter is 6ft 4” or 5ft 4” as to how hard she may find it?
 
Fitness. standards constantly change (read reduce), it’s a fact of life. In my career alone we went from doing a BFT in boots to trainers and know to a reduced distance/increased time. We also had a fitness assessment that included pull ups, which was phased out.

We went from a CFT that had a climb, jump and carry to the AFT with just the walk. We introduced OFT to recognise that different roles required different metrics! We now have PES.

In fact, dare I say, there are soldiers who have done a whole career and retired, meeting lower minimum standards than I had to, complaining about the lowering of standards ^~

I have no idea if these changes are solely to do with females, a decreasingly fit society in general, scientific advances and the ethos of ‘train in’. I suspect all and other factors have an influence.

One thing I can say as fact though, is that since the employment of females in the RE, the entrance test has not been adjusted or manipulated, the 40kg bag lift, remained extant, regardless of numbers.

On average the Sappers have taken less than 9 females a year for the last 10 years, due mainly to the bag lift. Therefore, in at least one part of the Army the entry standards have been enforced. I have no reason to believe (nor have I witnessed) there will be a rush to Ignore them in GCC.

of course, enforcement of standards, and the standards themselves are two separate issues:)
That would just suggest that those in charge can't be arsed making people fitter because it's easier to lower the standards.
 
I know the lunatics are going to come flooding back to the asylum with the following :)

But I reckon it rather depends on whether your daughter is 6ft 4” or 5ft 4” as to how hard she may find it?
Indeed, she is not one of the freaks at only 5'7" and is a lightweight rower, she is much fitter than average and is also used to handling weights so her thoughts will be of interest.
 
Fitness. standards constantly change (read reduce), it’s a fact of life. In my career alone we went from doing a BFT in boots to trainers and know to a reduced distance/increased time. We also had a fitness assessment that included pull ups, which was phased out.

We went from a CFT that had a climb, jump and carry to the AFT with just the walk. We introduced OFT to recognise that different roles required different metrics! We now have PES.

In fact, dare I say, there are soldiers who have done a whole career and retired, meeting lower minimum standards than I had to, complaining about the lowering of standards ^~

I have no idea if these changes are solely to do with females, a decreasingly fit society in general, scientific advances and the ethos of ‘train in’. I suspect all and other factors have an influence.

One thing I can say as fact though, is that since the employment of females in the RE, the entrance test has not been adjusted or manipulated, the 40kg bag lift, remained extant, regardless of numbers.

On average the Sappers have taken less than 9 females a year for the last 10 years, due mainly to the bag lift. Therefore, in at least one part of the Army the entry standards have been enforced. I have no reason to believe (nor have I witnessed) there will be a rush to Ignore them in GCC.

of course, enforcement of standards, and the standards themselves are two separate issues:)
to add to this in my AR unit we've had 2 females in the past year not meeting the standard for the power bag lift for RE. One did very well in the rest of her assessment scoring a grade A yet no exceptions were made. She had to go back to redo the bag lift.

Regarding the figures I think that is about right for number of female Sappers per year, interestingly RA have a slightly lower power bag lift requirement yet according to our CO, their proportion of females is only slightly higher than that of the RE.
 

Kefi

Clanker
to add to this in my AR unit we've had 2 females in the past year not meeting the standard for the power bag lift for RE. One did very well in the rest of her assessment scoring a grade A yet no exceptions were made. She had to go back to redo the bag lift.

Regarding the figures I think that is about right for number of female Sappers per year, interestingly RA have a slightly lower power bag lift requirement yet according to our CO, their proportion of females is only slightly higher than that of the RE.
However the Kings Troop RHA is 50% female & could be more at this time of posting ?
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
However the Kings Troop RHA is 50% female & could be more at this time of posting ?
Yes, but they're mainly a display team and there are fewer potential male recruits amongst the Horse and Hound readership.
 
In fact, dare I say, there are soldiers who have done a whole career and retired, meeting lower minimum standards than I had to, complaining about the lowering of standards ^~
There were of course generations of soldiers who had no fitness standards. I can well imagine when they were first introduced certain old sweats making comments along the lines of "I served for X years and fought in Y wars without ever passing a fitness test....."
 
Here is a timely Forces news report that graphically shows that the GCC are still carrying meg amounts of wight.
So we're looking towards China and Russia and we still believe we're going to go to war on foot. I thought we'd given that idea up in 1939.
 
I have posted this sequential photo before, but I think it poignantly captures my concern about women, and many men, lacking the musculature and bone structure needed for close combat. If i were king, a simple test would involve a timed run of say 3 miles with full kit, a timed sprint to another soldier/Marine with full kit simulating a casualty, and a timed sprint to recover same. A great part of morale in infantry units is the hope that you will not be abandoned in a fire-swept kill zone.

PhotoPictureResizer_191008_073837916-495x317.jpg
 
In fact, dare I say, there are soldiers who have done a whole career and retired, meeting lower minimum standards than I had to, complaining about the lowering of standards ^~
I can remember Dad describing the Manning Control impact on an infantry battalion (this must have been 70s / early 80s); the CO decided that the fair way to handle it was to line up the whole battalion, and lead a BFT. Discharges were done from among the non-zero number of test failures. [1]

Having a test is one thing; meeting a standard is another. How often were those tests carried out? What happened if the pass rate wasn't 100%? What was the rate of biff chits, and did COs "game" the system at all?

[1] Another of his apocryphal tales was from the 60s, and "Brigade Commander decides that Bde HQ will do a Scale A parade, no excuses". The Brigadier walks up to one of the older Chefs, points at the frontal stretch of a rather large combat jacket, and leads with the words:
"When was the last time that stomach did a night patrol, then?"
To receive the reply:
"Arnhem, Sir"
 

Latest Threads

Top