All Arms skill At Arms (short) TA

#41
Have a look in your courses handbook, I saw last night that there will be one of these courses run in September-October (not too sure of exact dates) course number is 0701 with bidding date, (I think) of August.
Sorry this is a bit sketchy but you should now just be able to "ask your PSI"

Svyazist
 
#42
watto135 said:
To the best of my knowledge, SAA Instructor is above CMCQ and only SAA can conduct WHT. I have been told that this is/has changed but not seen anything in writing yet.
If anybody knows different please enlighten me.
this has now changed the if you do a brigade course (CMCQ) you can take a WHT for A2/LSW only

the course number is ammended for your pampus to say so

watto[/quote]

Watto is correct on the All Arms SAA providing more qualifications than the CMCQ However the CMCQ taught at the BRTC gives an individual the SA(K)90 qual and allows an individual to conduct WHT's on ANY Weapon system that the individual is current and competent on and has passed the WHT for that weapon within the previous 6 months. Details are in PAM 21 also in the CTP for the CMCQ and more importantly on the course report for the individual from the BRTC.

SASC(V) consists of 5 Officers Headed by a Major based at Warminster, the entry criteria is that they are ex regular SASC and commissioned. It has been discussed several times over the years if direct entry to the Corps might be considered, the definitive answer so far is that the same route as a regular soldier might be considered for a TA soldier. The TA soldier would be required to complete the SASC probationer’s course and undertake the Corps continuation training programme prior to applying for the SASC(V) in short this means the minimum of 3 years full time service with no guarantee at the end of it.
 
#43
schoolstaffinstructor said:
Just going through the JI's am I right in thinking you need CMCQ to take WHT's?? JI's only talk about "instructing on rifle/LSW",who teaches 9mm, GPMG, LMG??? back at the TA center? Also on the new course you don't get CMCQ?? so can you do WHT's?

And

ok I guess I will find out next week, was a bit worried all I would end up being able to do was instruct SAA, which I do already.
To clear up a few isssues.
On the TA SAA course you will cover the CMCQ and as stated priviously you will be able to coach on other weapon systems.

Again as posted priviously (page 1) after passing the TA SAA course YOU will be able to teach on ANY weapon system, all you will need is a PAM and to pass a WHT on it.

And finally if you are teaching SAA now without having passed a course then 1. Your CO is playing very close to the wind and 2. You should not be teaching Recruits only giving revision lessons to trained soldiers.

Why? Simple, your not trained, if you teach a 'fad' (you will be taught all about them) to Rect B and then Rec B goes off and has an ND (or any other SAA related accident, even if he fekked up and it was nothing to do with what you taught), when asked who taught him and your name is give YOU and the CO will be so far up shisher creek you may as well forget ever tring to get back.

If you bother to read the MATTS sylibus you will see exactly who is qualified to take WHT's, and who ever wrote it didnt bother to read Pam 21 either!
MATTS state that the only people to take WHT's are SAAI's or Junior Brecon Qualified soldiers. It does not mention CMCQ.
On regular Brecon, they teach the SAA course as part of the SCBC so your covered, but in the TA they dont, so there is a exemtion that CMCQ personell may also test WHT's, BUT the revision training given MUST be given by a SAAI!

If your unit isnt conforming to the rules, then that is something your CO has either decided to do or he doesnt know about the new rules and your PSI's are not doing there job. either way, if there then happens to be a problem and an investigation ALL will be prosecuted, as military law states ignorance is no defence.
 
#44
Carlos_Hathcock_II said:
On regular Brecon, they teach the SAA course as part of the SCBC so your covered, but in the TA they dont, so there is a exemtion that CMCQ personell may also test WHT's, BUT the revision training given MUST be given by a SAAI!
CH

Nicely put mate and and your point is hammered home to all who attend the CMCQ courses. It still appear though that some units are not coming fully up to speed on the changes although they have been in place for at least 2 years now.
 
#45
schoolstaffinstructor said:
PAM 21 states CMCQ can take WHT's
Correct however CMCQ Qualified are not then able to take remedial training for the biffs that fail :banned: . That is where AASAA Inst take over aswell as conducting WHT.
Just means that you aren't always strapped for qualified, current and Competent :silent: Instructors on a Drill night or relying on the Permenant staff
 
#46
AA SAA Cse (short) at Warminster 27 Oct 07 - 10 Nov 07

Cheers
 
#47
watto135 said:
squigeypie said:
schoolstaffinstructor said:
Do they have TA SASC??
yes
Not sure were you get this from the only TA SASC is normally ex SASC Officers who then work for brigades
so thats still yes then, ex sasc who are now ta who are bde/sch of inf assests, the question wasnt can i become one
 
#48
lets clear this up once and for all, ive got pam 21 here it states;

pers who complete the cmcq are awarded the qual sa(k)90 this is a qual for reserve forces only and allows the holder to act as a small arms coach in a dcct or on a range, act as safety supervisor during LFMT practices only unless authorised by CO and conduct WHT's. it does not however state which weapon systems they can do WHTs on ( this seems a very grey area) .they cannot give remedial traning to biffs who fail said WHT. the AOSP vol 1 states only cometent and qualified pers who have completed a SAA can give instruction on all small arms weapons provided they have an in date WHT and correct pam for said weapon.

pers who complete the ta AANCOSAA(short) are also awarded the qualification sa(k)90 so they too can be range safety, coach etc..

non of the above can be ic butts console

you the can go on to the rmq 1-3 sa(b)90, then the live firing tactical training qual sa(c,d)90 mortars, grenades, field firing etc... sh1t hot course if you can get it
 
#50
So to become both Range Qualified and Skill at Arms qualified you need to do Skill at Arms course, CMCQC, RMQ 1-3 and DCCT.
A total commitment of 15 days at Brecon or Warminster and six weekends at your local RTC.
 
#53
One Army........

My Arrse!
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
#54
schoolstaffinstructor said:
27 working days which in Regular Army terms equals to 5 weeks and 2 days. Junior Brecon Skill at arms (6 weeks)
3 days difference- a mere NAAFI breaks worth over 6 weeks. Sounds very 1 army to me - similar length of training to obtain equivalent qualifications, but staggered to allow for the requirements of TA training.
 
#55
schoolstaffinstructor said:
27 working days which in Regular Army terms equals to 5 weeks and 2 days. Junior Brecon Skill at arms (6 weeks)
dont forget ta junior brecon another 2 weeks, thats if they still do it
 
#57
The_Duke said:
schoolstaffinstructor said:
27 working days which in Regular Army terms equals to 5 weeks and 2 days. Junior Brecon Skill at arms (6 weeks)
3 days difference- a mere NAAFI breaks worth over 6 weeks. Sounds very 1 army to me - similar length of training to obtain equivalent qualifications, but staggered to allow for the requirements of TA training.
But they are not the same qualification.

The TA RMQ 1-3 gives you SA(B)90 and the Reg gives you SA(A)90, which goes on even further if you then go for field firing 4&5 qual.
As a reg you can set up, create and plan a range, as a TA you can just run a range. (Before anyone pipes up I am talking about plotting the arc's, setting up the target locations and the beating zone, the Reg 1-3 lets you do that. The Reg 4&5 also lets you do that for field firing ranges. The TA one just lets you use already established and constructed ranges.)

So, you do the same amount of time, spread over a longer period, and get less for it.

One Army......
My Arrse.
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
#58
Carlos,

I am not sure that you are right there.

Regular SCBC (and the commissioning course) gets you 1-3 so that you can plan and conduct on purpose built ranges(SA(B)90. There is no requirement to plot arcs etc, as these are predetermined for LFMT ranges.

Regular PSBC and PCBC gives you 4&5 - plan and conduct LFTT ranges(SA(A)90. The TA LFTT course allow you to conduct but not plan, but is a 2 week course rather than a 4 week regular course.

So a Cpl that has passed regular SCBC can plan/conduct 1-3 on a purpose built range (and do safety supervisor on LFTT but not plan/conduct). The TA CMCQ/SAA/RMQ route allows the same in terms of planning/conducting, but I am not sure of the supervisor for LFTT.

Duke
 
#59
Then when the different quals at the end?

And I will have to confirm with a PSI about the uses for the different quals.
 
#60
What anyone can or can't do is clear in Pam 21, Chapter 3 Section 3 and just to put the WHT business to bed once and for all

n. SA (K) (90). Reserve Forces personnel listed at Serial 9 to
Section 3. Act as a Small Arms Coach and Safety
Supervisor during LFMT and conduct WHTs.
RN personnel listed at Serial 6 to Section 5. Act as
a Range Firing Point Supervisor, IC Butts and IC
ETR console during LFMT.

Note the word 'conduct'
 
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