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Alex Salmond - Independence referendum

#1
The odious see you next tuesday Alex Salmond has finally decided to bring a bill forward proposing a referendum on Scottish independence.

The bill will fail if the other parties, that are against a referendum, stick to their guns.

Even if the referendum happens, it's no guarantee of a yes vote.

Even then it's not binding re: the Westminster Parliament, especially with a Tory government in it.

Thoughts?
 
#2
One of the things that I care very strongly about is self-determination.

If the Scots want independence, that's fine by me. Likewise the Welsh, Northern Irish, or even Cornish.

I just wish we could have it from the EU though...
 
#3
While I personally think independence is in no ones interests, if the jocks want to vote on it and go that way, more power to their elbow. Isn't demoracy all about deciding things for yourself....

I think it would be messy as hell as well....
 
#4
I don't think the Scots want independence, and after the Al Megrahi saga they won't want Salmond to be the face of it even if they did. Frankly it might be a good idea to give Salmond enough rope to hang himself and his ideas with.
 
#5
harareboy99 said:
Thoughts?


Salmond knows it will fail but he's playing a long game.

He knows that when the Boy Cameron gets into No10, he will probably stop the Jockinesse MP's voting on English matters.

Salmond will then play that as 'Look! The English hate us and are excluding us' and rely on the 'Old Hatred' to win him another referendum.
 

Sixty

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#6
Oil_Slick said:
He knows that when the Boy Cameron gets into No10, he will probably stop the Jockinesse MP's voting on English matters.

Salmond will then play that as 'Look! The English hate us and are excluding us' and rely on the 'Old Hatred' to win him another referendum.

Would that not be very odd behaviour as the SNP already don't vote on English matters since they (quite rightly) see it as being very unfair to do so?

Dragooning Scots MPs through the lobby for contentious votes is a Labour trick, not a SNP one.
 
#8
I don't see the point in Scotland being completely independant - but if the Scottish people truly want it - then let them have it.

They base their entire ability to finance themselves on North Sea Oil - which won't last forever. Besides which, the money used to build the oil rigs was provided by the whole of the UK, not just Scotland.

And anyway, aren't the rigs owned by companies like BP and Shell etc..?

Scottish people may see many of the benefits they have gained since joining the Union disappearing as much of the finance they take for granted comes from the 'Union' money pot.

They may end up seeing the end of the NHS and have to pay for medical care - plus they would have to pay for their own Defence Force (if they want one that is).

Taxes will probably have to rise to keep pace with the increase.

Independance always sounds good on paper, but in the long run, can turn out to be expensive. I mean, look how much they overspent on the building of the Scottish Parliament...it wasn't the Scottish tax payer alone that paid for that, the English, Welsh and Northern Irish tax payers had to pay also.

I could be wrong and it may all turn out to be Sunshine and Roses - but time will always tell...
 
#9
Any referendum should also be held in England but then again, letting people have an actual say in who governs them is not a high priority amongst our political classes.

Democracy is effectively dead in England.
 
#10
Whilst I recognise the right of the Scos to decide for themselves I strongly believe in the Union of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I firmly believe that seperate we are less.

I find it truely bizarre that Salmond wants to vote on full independence for Scotland yet we as a nation aren't even allowed a say on the Lisbon Treaty and the EU.
 
#11
leprecon said:
They may end up seeing the end of the NHS and have to pay for medical care - plus they would have to pay for their own Defence Force (if they want one that is).
They do want a Defence Force. You'll be able to fit a 100% muster into a telephone box (if you can find one of those nowadays) but they reckon that's all that is needed. The TA, of course, will have to return all their kit and will be issued with a blue white-board marker and a plastic claymore, 'cause we all know Mel Gobsuch was historically accurate.

Taxes will probably have to rise to keep pace with the increase.
They're socialists. Of course taxes will rise. And the independent Scotland would never be allowed a say on EU membership - where do you think all the money is going to come from once we have thrown off the evil yoke of 1707?
 
#12
Sixty said:
Oil_Slick said:
He knows that when the Boy Cameron gets into No10, he will probably stop the Jockinesse MP's voting on English matters.

Salmond will then play that as 'Look! The English hate us and are excluding us' and rely on the 'Old Hatred' to win him another referendum.

Would that not be very odd behaviour as the SNP already don't vote on English matters since they (quite rightly) see it as being very unfair to do so?

Dragooning Scots MPs through the lobby for contentious votes is a Labour trick, not a SNP one.
To win an independence referendum? I would expect all bets to be off and all and any underhand or not so underhand tricks to be deployed.

Of course, Salmond and the rest of the idependence lobby may have twigged, that with the desperate economic situation UK PLC finds itself in after 12 years of Labour and a likely hood that the Barrett Formula may get torn up, going independent would instantly catapult them into the much more lucrative EU regional aid money pot.

I could easily see that as being a suitable referendum slant to win independence.
 
#13
leprecon said:
They may end up seeing the end of the NHS and have to pay for medical care - plus they would have to pay for their own Defence Force (if they want one that is).

As an independent country with a large and nuclear armed neighbour, they could, like the Republic of Ireland, hide behind Englands back while pretending to be 'neutral' and spend peanuts on defence.
 
#14
As with the Irish and the Welch, there are more Scots living in other countries than in Scotland - why - because they have better lives away from the home country. So, if the SNP want and get independence we should ban all Scots from holding posts of responsibility in England, give em back all the broadswords and shields in English museums and outlaw Burns and St.Andrews societies :p Oh, and no more Rugby and Football wars either!
 
#15
leprecon said:
I don't see the point in Scotland being completely independant - but if the Scottish people truly want it - then let them have it.

They base their entire ability to finance themselves on North Sea Oil - which won't last forever. Besides which, the money used to build the oil rigs was provided by the whole of the UK, not just Scotland.

And anyway, aren't the rigs owned by companies like BP and Shell etc..?

Scottish people may see many of the benefits they have gained since joining the Union disappearing as much of the finance they take for granted comes from the 'Union' money pot.

They may end up seeing the end of the NHS and have to pay for medical care - plus they would have to pay for their own Defence Force (if they want one that is).

Taxes will probably have to rise to keep pace with the increase.

Independance always sounds good on paper, but in the long run, can turn out to be expensive. I mean, look how much they overspent on the building of the Scottish Parliament...it wasn't the Scottish tax payer alone that paid for that, the English, Welsh and Northern Irish tax payers had to pay also.

I could be wrong and it may all turn out to be Sunshine and Roses - but time will always tell...
It has nothing to do with who owns or drills for north sea oil, it is about the tax revenue it generates that goes straight to westminster. More tha £12 Billion last year.

Yes the scottish parliament building was a fcuk up from the initial outset but in the end it cost just over £400 million. How many new governement buildings have been built in england since the union? Have a look at the Barnett formula and you will see that yes we get a little more than the english average per capita but there is a big differerence throughout the english regions with London taking the lions share. Its not a handout from central government, its taken from money we put in too. Why the fcuk cant you people see that.

I dont think that breaking up the union will do any of the countries any good but I do think Scotland would recover quickest.
 
#16
Am I right in thinking that Salmon is anti nuke so the submarine bases would have to close? I also presume that the RAF bases would have to relocate?
 
#17
offhand said:
Am I right in thinking that Salmon is anti nuke so the submarine bases would have to close? I also presume that the RAF bases would have to relocate?
Alex Salmond calls himself a nationalist yet would quiet happily see an "Independent" Scotland become an EU province. A strange concept of freedom indeed.
 
#18
leprecon said:
I don't see the point in Scotland being completely independant - but if the Scottish people truly want it - then let them have it.

They base their entire ability to finance themselves on North Sea Oil - which won't last forever.
Sweeping statements, there...

Replace the bold with "Scottish Nationalists", and you'll be more accurate.

Says me as a Scottish Unionist (in the non-separation sense, not in terms of the "Conservative and Unionist Party"), and thanks $DEITY that post-crunch the SNP can't get away with their usual claims about how "an independent Scotland would be financially secure, just look at the Republic of Ireland"
 
#19
offhand said:
Am I right in thinking that Salmon is anti nuke so the submarine bases would have to close? I also presume that the RAF bases would have to relocate?
Virulently anti-Trident, never mind anti-Trident-replacement. There is only the one sub base up here now, anyway. And only Plymouth down south.

Mind you, giving the RJAF some Typhoons might make the RAF budget look a little less unbalanced.
 
#20
Independance would be a disaster. The current selection of MSPs make the Mugabe regime look good. No way am I going to be in Salmond's version of the Swiss Guard - I shall continue to take the Queen's shilling and opt not to wear a kilt (a Victorian invention by the way).
 

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