Alabama USA: Medieval or religious fundamentalist thinking?

Alabama has just passed an anti-abortion law that defies belief as far as I'm concerned. It would appear to be religious fundamentalism gone to extremes or is it a vote-grabbing exercise. What's your take on it?
Alabama passes bill banning abortion

Vote grabbing because religious fundamentalists may be as thick as mince, they may dress like Sue Ryder's reject skip fell on them, they may be fat, they may be under educated, but they vote.
 
I can't speak for the US but the statistics for England and Wales in 2004 show a very clear trend, 60% of abortions took place at under 10 weeks pregnancy and 88% took place at less than 13 weeks pregnancy - Abortion statistics, England and Wales: 2004 : Department of Health - Publications

Most of those were women aged under 25. Do you really think it's more barbaric to abort a foetus than make a child grow up with a mother that doesn't want it? What's worse, some possible sensation of pain (in a clump of cells with a still developing nervous system) or 16 years of poor home life?

People will always have unprotected sex and unwanted pregnancy will happen, especially among the young and stupid who will make the worst parents. In my opinion it's better to have safe legal abortion within reasonable limits than force women to have babies they don't want or go through illegal abortions. Incidentally, the death rate from illegal abortions (of mother and foetus) is now effectively zero in the UK.
Don't you have this fantastic social welfare system that allows people to do **** all and live decently? The Happiness rates in the UK should be through the roof, considering the struggle bus is not quite the same as it is here.

Life is not fair, but at least giving a person a chance is still better than pulling the trigger so to speak. Many teens get knocked up here, have their children and life still goes on. Grandparents play quite the role in helping out, and most families accept it and move on.
 
Don't you have this fantastic social welfare system that allows people to do **** all and live decently? The Happiness rates in the UK should be through the roof, considering the struggle bus is not quite the same as it is here.
I'm responding to your posts without the sarcasm.

Life is not fair, but at least giving a clump of developing cells that might become a person a chance is still better than pulling the trigger so to speak.
If the argument was about shooting newborns that the mother didn't want I would totally agree with you. It isn't.
 
No excuse for bad arithmetic.... Even so aborting a healthy foetus at 5 1/2 months on demand - which is effectively the system we have in England does not, in my view make you morally superior to the legislators of Alabama.
Really? You honestly think having a tiny percentage of abortions at a stage where the foetus wouldn't survive if born is the moral equivalent of forcing victims of rape and incest to give birth to their attacker's child?
 
There is a perfectly sensible debate about where in term it can be permitted across countries, religions and atheists, men and women. Generally based on medical knowledge.

Banning it at conception, and explicitly removing rape and incest as factors is not part of that debate. It's completely insane.
Think of the premise that led to the law, then you might understand it better. A lot of the pro-life folks genuinely believe that the foetus from the moment of conception is a life. To them, terminating the foetus under any circumstances is tantamount to murder.
Even for rape or incest they view the foetus as an innocent party who is effectively killed for sins they didn’t commit. This is the point of view you have to contend with and it’s a perfectly logical and moral one.
 
I'm responding to your posts without the sarcasm.


If the argument was about shooting newborns that the mother didn't want I would totally agree with you. It isn't.
I am not being totally sarcastic...only a little.

It is about a State deciding to pick a fight with the Supreme Court, and going as draconian as they can to ensure they get a shot at Roe V Wade. Politics are in play which people from not here won't quite fully grasp.
 
Think of the premise that led to the law, then you might understand it better. A lot of the pro-life folks genuinely believe that the foetus from the moment of conception is a life. To them, terminating the foetus under any circumstances is tantamount to murder.
Even for rape or incest they view the foetus as an innocent party who is effectively killed for sins they didn’t commit. This is the point of view you have to contend with and it’s a perfectly logical and moral one.
I remember an doco with a mid level Taliban commander who gave an interview about lobbing gays off buildings. His take was he was helping them as by punishment in this world he was cleansing their sins and would let them enter heaven. I have no reason to doubt his sincerity in that, but it doesn't mean I have to regard it as a valid view.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

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Hmm, people thinking that their belief in Sky Pixie enables them to control what women do with their bodies?

Nope, nothing medieval in that world view...
The Romans held that parents had the right to kill their children since they had given them life. You're essentially advancing the same argument - the only area of dispute being the applicable timeframe.

There are certain circumstances of pregnancy that deserve nothing but the greatest understanding and the choice of abortion in those circumstances should be available and that same understanding should be extended to those who make it. For the most part, however, given all the effort put into Sex Ed and all the contraception options available, there is generally no excuse.

There is no moral justification for this second group using abortion as a form of contraception, though there is an undoubted social value in preventing them from breeding successfully.

Decisions, decisions.
 
You went to school in a backwater state, remember??
I went to a top 10 engineering school in the U.S. - one which is consistently so, in a town which is one of most well educated ones and which hosts a lot of R&D centers for quite a few global corps. So don't come at me from that point. And SE-MI has one of the highest concentrations of engineers and educated people - why do you think companies, including the Chinese automotive ones want set up base there?
 
I could "understand" if this was a middle east country but for a state in america to bring it in seems incredible to me. Somebody has obviously got a lot of influence or dirt on others
Never underestimate the power of stupid.
The fact that they will not allow abortion for rape victims and incest victims speaks volumes. Especially as apart from the moral point of view there is every chance that the birth of a child from incest has a higher chance of deformity.
 
I went to a top 10 engineering school in the U.S. - one which is consistently so, in a town which is one of most well educated ones and which hosts a lot of R&D centers for quite a few global corps. So don't come at me from that point. And SE-MI has one of the highest concentrations of engineers and educated people - why do you think companies, including the Chinese automotive ones want set up base there?
Who cares, in my experience Michigan only produces economic refugees who flee to other locales and compete with the natives because they can't find **** all to do in MI.
 
Never underestimate the power of stupid.
The fact that they will not allow abortion for rape victims and incest victims speaks volumes. Especially as apart from the moral point of view there is every chance that the birth of a child from incest has a higher chance of deformity.
You do realize that they are trying to to get this fight kicked up to the Supreme court?? So of course they are going to make it as draconian as possible to ensure they get a chance...
 
Who cares, in my experience Michigan only produces economic refugees who flee to other locales and compete with the natives because they can't find **** all to do in MI.
Yeah, that's why MI contributes about half a billion dollars to the economy while WY is what roughly 40 million? And it has a population of about almost 10 million vs. 0.5 million roughly. Yes, I can see where people are fleeing to and from.

The same way people love to hate on CA - but when they realize how much revenue will go away, they shit their pants.
 
Yeah, that's why MI contributes about half a billion dollars to the economy while WY is what roughly 40 million? And it has a population of about almost 10 million vs. 0.5 million roughly. Yes, I can see where people are fleeing to and from.

The same way people love to hate on CA - but when they realize how much revenue will go away, they shit their pants.
Map: Where the economic recovery in the U.S. has taken hold... and where it hasn’t

1557951833377.png



About 34 Billion in 2017 numbers. Not horrible for a place that can't even come close to having a million bodies in it.
 
Map: Where the economic recovery in the U.S. has taken hold... and where it hasn’t

View attachment 393208


About 34 Billion in 2017 numbers. Not horrible for a place that can't even come close to having a million bodies in it.
Congrats - and look at the growth rates. The revenue is based mainly on resources/ oil not on what's involved with people or industries - more sustainable on the longer term.

Anyways, I am sure WY is great but this is a stupid argument to get into. We are are taking about AL. NC used to be a bit like AL before they got the tech corridor going there and also got automotive companies like Mercedes, Volvo and a few others down there.
 
Congrats - and look at the growth rates. The revenue is based mainly on resources/ oil not on what's involved with people or industries - more sustainable on the longer term.

Anyways, I am sure WY is great but this is a stupid argument to get into. We are are taking about AL. NC used to be a bit like AL before they got the tech corridor going there and also got automotive companies like Mercedes, Volvo and a few others down there.
Yes we are a state that provides resources, trust me I know how the boom and bust cycle works.

NC has some areas that are turning purple and blue. The rural interior is very much red. But the culture shift is also because of the Yankee migration to the cheaper Southern States. The divide however is very stark and the bias is real.

1557952899674.png
 
Really? You honestly think having a tiny percentage of abortions at a stage where the foetus wouldn't survive if born is the moral equivalent of forcing victims of rape and incest to give birth to their attacker's child?
I'm not opposed to abortion per se. However I do object to the wilful deception we seemed to be compelled to engage in to convince ourselves that it isn't killing.

Only around 2% of abortions are performed under Grade E (risk that the child would be born ‘seriously handicapped’). Around 95% are performed under Grade C, the widest definition which states that continued pregnancy threatens the physical or mental health of the mother. This has become the de facto response for elective abortion - no further questions asked.

The hypocrisy here that people are regularly prosecuted and imprisoned for helping a terminally ill, often elderly loved one 'over the threshold' as an act of mercy, and yet there is a huge industry devoted to the killing of what would be a human being for reasons of convenience.
 
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I'm not opposed to abortion per se. However I do not object to the wilful deception we seemed to be compelled to engage in to convince ourselves that it isn't killing.
Killing what? A bundle of cells? A potential future person? A baby?

Perhaps a compromise, abortion to be outlawed but all foetuses to be delivered by caesarean and given every chance at life. Given 88% of abortions in England and Wales take place before 13 weeks of pregnancy, roughly two months before a foetus has any chance of surviving I don't think that will end well.

Only around 2% of abortions are performed under Grade E (risk that the child would be born ‘seriously handicapped’). Around 95% are performed under Grade C, the widest definition which states that continued pregnancy threatens the physical or mental health of the mother. This has become the de facto response for elective abortion - no further questions asked.
There shouldn't need to be any other questions asked. The mother has decided she does not want to be pregnant. Do you object to the morning after pill as well?

The hypocrisy here that people are regularly prosecuted and imprisoned for helping a terminally ill, often elderly loved one 'over the threshold' as an act of mercy, and yet there is a huge industry devoted to the killing of what would be a human being for reasons of convenience.
The bit in bold is the key point, It is not killing a person, it is stopping a bundle of cells turning into a person. Also, where did the comparison to voluntary euthanasia come from? Just because the law is an ass when it comes to palliative care does not mean abortion law is unacceptable.
 

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