AJAX - the ‘NOT the CR2 upgrade’ thread

What's the armour protection rating for something like Boxer/Stryker compared to an IFV like Warrior, Bradley or even Ajax?
Could the tracked Boxer be a realistic Warrior replacement?
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
If you've got six dismounts, then what is your endurance, Ie how many rounds loaded?

39 apparently, BAE are once again going, "FFS we did this shit over a decade ago, and now you're all poling tents over these Johnny come latelies"
 
39 apparently, BAE are once again going, "FFS we did this shit over a decade ago, and now you're all poling tents over these Johnny come latelies"

Running some rough numbers, based on boxer's standard width then this bit:
1655125484021.png

is solid ammo, with almost **** all armour. If anyone so much at looks at it in a harsh manner the back of your turret is going to fall off. I'd ask how that much ammo, having a flaming party above the troop compartment roof, is going to effect the insides.

Edit:
Another view:
FVIT3mRWYAQiKOx


Is that an ATGM I spy on top of the turret?

Man I wish I could get to some of these shows, I wouldn't ask too many awkward questions!
 
Running some rough numbers, based on boxer's standard width then this bit:
View attachment 670079
is solid ammo, with almost **** all armour. If anyone so much at looks at it in a harsh manner the back of your turret is going to fall off. I'd ask how that much ammo, having a flaming party above the troop compartment roof, is going to effect the insides.

Edit:
Another view:
FVIT3mRWYAQiKOx


Is that an ATGM I spy on top of the turret?

Man I wish I could get to some of these shows, I wouldn't ask too many awkward questions!

That sounds disturbingly like the BMP-3 and BMD-4's turret-projecting ammunition handling arrangements...can't find it now but someone on the twitter posted both pix of the unprotected carousel and an estimate of the total energetic material between the 105mm, 30mm, and ATGMs, something like 300kg of assorted explosives and solid fuel.
 
That sounds disturbingly like the BMP-3 and BMD-4's turret-projecting ammunition handling arrangements...can't find it now but someone on the twitter posted both pix of the unprotected carousel and an estimate of the total energetic material between the 105mm, 30mm, and ATGMs, something like 300kg of assorted explosives and solid fuel.

Yeah, I think we worked out how much bang there was when pictures of BMP-3's and BMD's that had been on the wrong end of a penetration showed up from Ukraine.
To be fair to the Tracked Boxer, the turret is separated from the fighting compartment, so survivability might be a bit better for the crew.
 

Majorpain

War Hero
Running some rough numbers, based on boxer's standard width then this bit:
View attachment 670079
is solid ammo, with almost **** all armour. If anyone so much at looks at it in a harsh manner the back of your turret is going to fall off. I'd ask how that much ammo, having a flaming party above the troop compartment roof, is going to effect the insides.

Edit:
Another view:
FVIT3mRWYAQiKOx


Is that an ATGM I spy on top of the turret?

Man I wish I could get to some of these shows, I wouldn't ask too many awkward questions!
15 rounds in Autoloader, I imagine the 39 is if the rear compartment gets used for Ammo.
Fancy EMBT was 22 total in turret bustle autoloader, because operator sits where hull ammo was.

Curiously KNDS/Rheinmetall have put some crazy stuff out recently, probably a lack of direction from the very underfunded Bundeswehr that is not giving them any direction of what they actually want. So the engineers are putting together fancy tech demonstrators that push boundaries, but which don't fit anyone's doctrine or wish list.
 
15 rounds in Autoloader, I imagine the 39 is if the rear compartment gets used for Ammo.
Fancy EMBT was 22 total in turret bustle autoloader, because operator sits where hull ammo was.

Thanks, that's much more believable.

Curiously KNDS/Rheinmetall have put some crazy stuff out recently, probably a lack of direction from the very underfunded Bundeswehr that is not giving them any direction of what they actually want. So the engineers are putting together fancy tech demonstrators that push boundaries, but which don't fit anyone's doctrine or wish list.
Which is where all the cool shit happens. There was a time when we paid people to do that and just stumped up the cash and said 'Go nuts!'.
 

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
Thanks, that's much more believable.


Which is where all the cool shit happens. There was a time when we paid people to do that and just stumped up the cash and said 'Go nuts!'.
It doesn’t pass the ‘if it looks good then...’ test though, it looks like an absolute bag of spanners.
 

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
From KNDS’ Eurosatory blurb:

KNDS (KMW+NEXTER Defense Systems) is well recognized as the world leader in main battle tanks (MBT), with systems in service in more than 20 countries.
With high-level technical know-how and a strong capacity to innovate, KNDS has always been able to adapt to the operational needs of its customers and still demonstrates it today through the ongoing modernization programs for Leclerc and Leopard 2 MBTs in service in the French and German armies, as in foreign armies.
Thanks to KNDS's recognized expertise, these state-of-the-art systems will benefit from enhanced protection (APS, add-on armour against IED and RPG-type threats), improved mobility and integration into the collaborative combat environment in order to remain champions in their class for the next decades.
In a context marked by the return of high-intensity combat, KNDS also offers new capabilities while modifying the approach to armored combat and thus ensuring tactical superiority. KNDS is fully aware of the ongoing exponentially accelerated new technology developments and their potential impact on operational capabilities. Therefore, KNDS is continuously analyzing how to match concepts of operations (CONOPS) and opportunities offered by new technologies in order to increase operational effectiveness and efficiency permanently.
On its booth, KNDS presents various innovative concepts like manned/unmanned turrets approaching the design of future MBTs and MGCS tracked modular mission systems:

• The EMBT presented at Eurosatory represents a new experimental platform, featuring a 4 men crew concept (2 men turret, 2 men chassis) with an evolutionary 120mm turret coupled to a new generation ammunition (Shard) and a completely new and reconfigurable MMI. This allows dynamic task allocation and testing of “innovative crew concepts” with variable number of crew stations including the presence of a System Operator: as a response to the cognitive workload of the tank commander, it enables to leverage the full potential of an extensive sensors and effectors suite while progress is being made on AI technologies. The platform includes a modern power pack with digital control allowing drive-by-wire, which is a prerequisite for remoted automated driving operations and manned/unmanned teaming. The 30mm RCWS located on the turret introduces counter-UAV capability.
• As a major player in the MGCS program, KNDS is also preparing the future of the main armament by presenting the new ASCALON gun and ammunition concept. This innovative concept, while proposing significant growth potential, delivers performance levels that current technologies do not offer. Taking advantage of its long experience with the 120mm smoothbore gun, its mastery of compact ammunition as well as of the maturity achieved during firing campaigns with a 140mm caliber, KNDS designed ASCALON with an open architecture to serve as a basis for cooperative development within the framework of the Franco-German MGCS program, laying the foundations for the future standard of European tank gun and ammunition.
• The BOXER tracked exploiting the application of the wheeled Boxer (mission) modularity is developed for the same purpose. The BOXER tracked is equipped for the Eurosatory 2022 with a Remote-Controlled Turret 120. Due to its new design, the major benefit is that the weapon system itself is not diving into the chassis area. This is achieved via a new approach of weapon recoil mechanism. By this, the chassis can be optimized for crew operation and protection without the crew being disturbed and affected by the effect of the operation of the main gun.

That last point about mitigating 120mm recoil is interesting.
 

Majorpain

War Hero
Which is where all the cool shit happens. There was a time when we paid people to do that and just stumped up the cash and said 'Go nuts!'.
Fine, but the danger is they go nuts reinventing the wheel to justify their well paid job! Couple of interesting things (that 130mm is coming along very nicely) but nothing that really gets the heart racing.

Also note how KMW/Rheinmetall are splitting, now KMW has Nexter in-house for armaments Rheinmetall has to tread carefully in future lest they get frozen out.
 
Fine, but the danger is they go nuts reinventing the wheel to justify their well paid job! Couple of interesting things (that 130mm is coming along very nicely) but nothing that really gets the heart racing.

Also note how KMW/Rheinmetall are splitting, now KMW has Nexter in-house for armaments Rheinmetall has to tread carefully in future lest they get frozen out.
But, given Germany's current attitude to weapons supply, who will order anything from them?
 
But, given Germany's current attitude to weapons supply, who will order anything from them?
In one of these threads I made a tongue in cheek remark viz Challenger 3 and Jigs

I was really alluding to the point you make

Germany has set itself up as the Non US supplier of choice - theres a lack of trust being expressed about support from Germany.

UK could look to position itself here -
 
That sounds disturbingly like the BMP-3 and BMD-4's turret-projecting ammunition handling arrangements...can't find it now but someone on the twitter posted both pix of the unprotected carousel and an estimate of the total energetic material between the 105mm, 30mm, and ATGMs, something like 300kg of assorted explosives and solid fuel.

As if by Magic, the Uranians have heard your question and have provided an answer. This was nicked off the Ukrainian thread:


Keep in mind that looks like about three rounds of HE from arty.
 
What's the armour protection rating for something like Boxer/Stryker compared to an IFV like Warrior, Bradley or even Ajax?
Could the tracked Boxer be a realistic Warrior replacement?
I am thinking more an FV432 replacement if you drop the turret. A Remote Weapon station module with a 30mm Bushmaster would be interesting as well.
 

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