Agnostic - but willing to change my views - convince me!

#61
Biped said:
Dashing_Chap said:
Perhaps there are creatures on another planet with another sense, for the sake of argument lets call it a mllar, with this mllar sense they can see into the different dimensions, which can be considered mathematically, but never experienced or proved first hand by us because we cannot sense them. Does this mean they do not exist :?
This being the case, everything and anything that out imaginations can dream of should exist, just like my Flying Spaghetti Monster (may his Noodly appendage touch your ignorant soul).

If it cannot be proven to exist, then one cannot kill or maim others for not believing it, as the churches have done and continue to do. Insult the Islamic sky-faery and you'll get your ass fatwahed.

Just because something cannot be proven to not exist does not mean it automatically exists. Hence the Spaghetti Monster - you can't prove He doesn't exist, and thus, I expect you, as an act of 'faith' to believe that He does, and that, despite being made out of meatballs, fine sauce and pasta, He has, as His reason for existance, human frailties and concerns to fix.
Notice I said mathematically old boy. :) but then I suppose due to the vastness of the universe some maths type chap somewhere could probably prove your Spaghetti Monster Messiah.

Dashing_Chap said:
Now my final point is that God, according to those scientist chaps, exists outside of time & space, or in other words, in another dimension.
Biped said:
[No he doesn't. Over 90% of scientists (at a rough guess) don't believe he exists, whether that's within or outside time and space.

Science is something that is done in terms of well-educated guesses, or empirical evidence. The bible, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism and all the other 'belief systems' provide none of them.

Do try and avoid the suggestion that science and religion are bedfellows would you?
I was referring to Mr Hawking, please note that, as aforesaid, I do not believe in the Christian God nor any man made fallacy. My own humble opinion would be that I am here, therefore logic would assume that something must have made me, mankind & my surroundings. This doesn’t mean I go off quoting the bible & dressing up as a donkey for Christmas. It does mean that I consider the possibility of there being something that has formed the universe. Since time & space were apparently created at the same instant one would conclude that the action that started it all happened slightly before that, and therefore, in a different dimension to time & space.

~D.C.
 
#62
D.C.

Different dimensions already exist Mathematically... at least 11 are required according to some theories. But none of that say anything about the existance or otherwise of God. What exactly do you think dimensionality has to do with it?

Refering to Hawking... how? No quote was given, so i suspect you're just name dropping to attempt to add weight to your attempts at Meta-physics.

You're more than free to consider other possibilities, but as Biped said, 90% of scientists (each more knowledgable than any of us in their particular fields) are currently betting the other way.

Edited to Add. I'm sure Stephen would also prefer that you gave him his proper title... thats Professor Hawking to you. :wink:
 
#64
TopBadger said:
D.C.

Different dimensions already exist Mathematically... at least 11 are required according to some theories. But none of that say anything about the existance or otherwise of God. What exactly do you think dimensionality has to do with it?
Time & space were created in one instant with the big bang, something may have created time & space, but for that to happen it would be in a dimension outside of time & space.

TopBadger said:
Refering to Hawking... how? No quote was given, so i suspect you're just name dropping to attempt to add weight to your attempts at Meta-physics.
Merely quoting from an earlier post my dear chap, shown below:

basso said:
From A Brief History of Time.

"... If we find the answer to that, it would be the

ultimate triumph of human reason-for then we should know the mind of

God."
TopBadger said:
You're more than free to consider other possibilities, but as Biped said, 90% of scientists (each more knowledgable than any of us in their particular fields) are currently betting the other way.

Edited to Add. I'm sure Stephen would also prefer that you gave him his proper title... thats Professor Hawking to you. :wink:
The greatest respect to Prof Hawking… In a more simplified explanation, my own opinion is that something created the universe, whether that was a mistake, a reaction or whatever, the ‘cause’ is my God.

~D.C.
 
#65
five-minute-fagbreak said:
I have always been on the fence as far as religion goes(just in case) and am amazed by the faith people have in a better place after we pop our clogs.
Last night after a day of merryment and lager, I had the normal wierd thoughts.
I thought to myself it was only 20 years ago that Ileft the army, but seemed like only yesterday, so, 20 years from now is not far away and I will be feckin 70!
So I need some help in thinking that when It's time to go, and presuming I am still a good lad, there will be shed loads of virgins or other nice things to look forward to, personaly I think religion is the cause of enough shite in this world, but it would be nice to believe there was something to look forward to when we peg it!
I'm not about to top meself, and this is the naafi so all incoming is expected, but anyone out there thinking the same? or can anyone talk me into going to church later instead of the pub :wink:

Now look at what you started Five Minute Fag Break. Shall we pray??

:wink:
 
#66
Having said all that I must confess I'm rather partial to the Canaanite religion. :p

&c,

~D.C.
 
#67
I can see why people are religious. Having recently lost my mother (yes I did look down the back of the sofa) I would really like to think that we have an imortal soul and heaven ..... but it's all just wishful thinking.

Being an atheist can be empty, but it can also lead you to really appreciate life. This IS all there is. Enjoy it, make the most of it etc.

Julia Sweeney - letting go of god
 

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#69
A beautiful thing, and possibly the most enjoyable, about not believing in all this bowlarks, is that you can cause as much unpleasantness and evil in the one life you've got, and there's no come-back when you die. Cool eh?
 
#70
Dashing_Chap said:
Time & space were created in one instant with the big bang, something may have created time & space, but for that to happen it would be in a dimension outside of time & space.

The greatest respect to Prof Hawking… In a more simplified explanation, my own opinion is that something created the universe, whether that was a mistake, a reaction or whatever, the ‘cause’ is my God.
DC - you seem to be basically advancing the Cosmological Argument (one of the Big Five classical arguments for a theistic God's existence): everything in existence has a cause. But something must have got the whole process started in the first place. Therefore, there must be an uncaused causer. God is that uncaused causer.

Fair enough, an understandable point of view on the face of it. But there are two major problems with it.

Firstly, the human need to posit an uncaused causer may well be down to our inability to understand quantum physics. Counterintuitive as it seems, it's not necessarily the case that everything has to have a cause. Human beings have a marked tendency to employ a "God of the gaps" rationale: if there's something that we don't understand because our scientific knowledge is not sufficiently advanced, we attribute whatever it is to God. Cf previous era's explanation of eclipses, disease, earthquakes etc. Once our scientific understanding increases, we remove God from the explainatory process. I think we'll do the same thing, eventually, for the origins of the universe.

Secondly, even if the uncaused causer part of the Cosmological Argument was true, it wouldn't prove the existence a theistic God. Why should we assume that the uncaused causer (if it exists) is all powerful, all loving, all knowing etc etc?

georgieb17 said:
Pascal's Wager

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascals_wager

spose it makes sense, still seems alot of effort though.
I had Pascal's Wager in mind when I wrote my first post on this thread: the wager is bollocks because it wrongly assumes A) that you don't lose anything by being religious and B) that the kind of god that would send you to hell for not believing would be placated by you only believing in him for Pascal's reasons.
 
#71
basso said:
every drop of liquid on earth has been drunk at least once by

someone else.
and by extension pee'd out too

and by further extension:

Oh my GOD ! have I drank someone else's wee :?
 
#72
basso said:
five-minute-fagbreak said:
I have always been on the fence as far as religion goes(just in case) and am amazed by the faith people have in a better place after we pop our clogs.
Last night after a day of merryment and lager, I had the normal wierd thoughts.
I thought to myself it was only 20 years ago that Ileft the army, but seemed like only yesterday, so, 20 years from now is not far away and I will be feckin 70!
So I need some help in thinking that when It's time to go, and presuming I am still a good lad, there will be shed loads of virgins or other nice things to look forward to, personaly I think religion is the cause of enough shite in this world, but it would be nice to believe there was something to look forward to when we peg it!
I'm not about to top meself, and this is the naafi so all incoming is expected, but anyone out there thinking the same? or can anyone talk me into going to church later instead of the pub :wink:

Now look at what you started Five Minute Fag Break. Shall we pray??

:wink:
Feck, much of this is going waaaay over my head, but interesting reading tho, by the way, I went to the pub! :wink:
 

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#73
_Artemis_ said:
Dashing_Chap said:
Time & space were created in one instant with the big bang, something may have created time & space, but for that to happen it would be in a dimension outside of time & space.

The greatest respect to Prof Hawking… In a more simplified explanation, my own opinion is that something created the universe, whether that was a mistake, a reaction or whatever, the ‘cause’ is my God.
DC - you seem to be basically advancing the Cosmological Argument (one of the Big Five classical arguments for a theistic God's existence): everything in existence has a cause. But something must have got the whole process started in the first place. Therefore, there must be an uncaused causer. God is that uncaused causer.

Fair enough, an understandable point of view on the face of it. But there are two major problems with it.

Firstly, the human need to posit an uncaused causer may well be down to our inability to understand quantum physics. Counterintuitive as it seems, it's not necessarily the case that everything has to have a cause. Human beings have a marked tendency to employ a "God of the gaps" rationale: if there's something that we don't understand because our scientific knowledge is not sufficiently advanced, we attribute whatever it is to God. Cf previous era's explanation of eclipses, disease, earthquakes etc. Once our scientific understanding increases, we remove God from the explainatory process. I think we'll do the same thing, eventually, for the origins of the universe.

Secondly, even if the uncaused causer part of the Cosmological Argument was true, it wouldn't prove the existence a theistic God. Why should we assume that the uncaused causer (if it exists) is all powerful, all loving, all knowing etc etc?
My Bold

Indeedy do. We ascribe to this uncaused causer mental faculties and frailties of humanity. The angry god, the vengeful god, the almighty god who looks like a human and is bothered by matters human - indeed, an omnipotent, omniscient god who intercedes on behalf of humans that pray to it.

We make this god look like our grandfather's, or our elders, and we give them every human characteristic there is, but infinitely more powerful, despite being childish, vengeful, angry and listening to our individual prayers.

Everything we perceive or imagine is purely within human frames of reference and understanding. We could not describe the godliness of Quantum physics, because until recently, we didn't know it existed - and yet now, it's part of god's great miracle.

We were sent down from the Garden of Eden for eating from the tree of knowledge, and yet, the more we understand of the microsocopic and macroscopic universe, or multiples thereof, the closer to this so-called God we seem to be in the eyes of some, whilst for others, the more we understand, annd the further we can see, the further away God gets from our understanding and education of the reality that he was supposed to create in 6 days.

The very idea that we are an exceptionally lucky, but infinitely small and short-lived accident in the grand cosmos does not sit well with some - those who think we should have been the place that the sun and the rest of the universe revolved around. The centre of God's universe, at the centre of his godly scheming.

_Artemis_ said:
georgieb17 said:
Pascal's Wager

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascals_wager

spose it makes sense, still seems alot of effort though.
I had Pascal's Wager in mind when I wrote my first post on this thread: the wager is bollocks because it wrongly assumes A) that you don't lose anything by being religious and B) that the kind of god that would send you to hell for not believing would be placated by you only believing in him for Pascal's reasons.
It is a load of old bowlarks. What omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent being would care a fig whether an accident of genetics (in some tiny little planet, in some half-arrsed solar system, in one arm of just one galaxy, in a globular cluster that is one of millions in the infinitely huge cosmos) believed he/she/it existed or not? Why would such a being even care, let alone ascribe penalties for thought crime? Like it matters? Like this being is going to disappear in a puff of quantum parts if there is not enough belief on some small orbiting ball of rock to keep it afloat!?!?!?

The ultimate in PRIDE - allegedly one of the deadly sins, but one we, in believing we are central to the grand scheme of God's processes are rather guilty of. The PRIDE of the church and having us believe we could be near to, or be listend to by such a grand author of the universe!

Does such an omnipotent creature REALLY sell forgiveness for tithes? Does he REALLY honour the meek?

What incredible lunacy is this? It's another human frailty and fear representing itself in our psyche, to keep us from being frightened of the terrible, howling dark outside our caves.
 

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#76
_Artemis_ said:
Biped - I do like the way we tend to angrily agree with each other on matters religious :D
Indignation is what I'm talking about here! One might even say 'righteous' indignation over matters ecuminical. I do angrily concur with your rage-provoking posts in a manner that is not unlike a good, but ruffled Sir of Tunbridge Wells. HARRUMPH!
 
#77
jesusjones said:
all religion is just a croc of s***, its for people who cant face upto the fact that when they croak thats it, game over, no more, youve had your chance.

sorry but thats it, your weak , you cant handle the fact, keep giving up your sundays and worshiping the wonderful mystic man who will bet there to save you at the end , utter bolloxsl, why not go the full hog and kill loads of people you dont even know if you want to take religion to its extreme.

its utter shite.
Who rattled your cage, shitlips?

Never mess with another dudes mojo!
Pick your -ism, whether it be Mohammedanism, Anglicanism, atheism, stoicism, cynicism or alcoholism.
In the words of the late, great Cpl "Donkey" Darby, aka, Terry Savalas:-
(with a nod to Herr Lennon)
"Whatever gets you through the night baby.........'salright, 'salright!"
 
#78
sandmanfez said:
Never mess with another dudes mojo!
Pick your -ism, whether it be Mohammedanism, Anglicanism, atheism, stoicism, cynicism or alcoholism.
In the words of the late, great Cpl "Donkey" Darby, aka, Terry Savalas:-
(with a nod to Herr Lennon)
"Whatever gets you through the night baby.........'salright, 'salright!"
Onanism seems to be popular.
 
#79
Mate its simple, have a great life, do what you want then repent and ask for forgiveness on your deathbed.
That way if there is something after death your in cos he loves nothing more than a repenting sinner and hes got to forgive you, its in the book so your onto a winner. :D
Now if theres nothing then you've lived life to the full and thoroughly enjoyed it! :D
Easy peasy. 8) 8)
 
#80
Garhwal said:
sandmanfez said:
Never mess with another dudes mojo!
Pick your -ism, whether it be Mohammedanism, Anglicanism, atheism, stoicism, cynicism or alcoholism.
In the words of the late, great Cpl "Donkey" Darby, aka, Terry Savalas:-
(with a nod to Herr Lennon)
"Whatever gets you through the night baby.........'salright, 'salright!"
Onanism seems to be popular.
Just remember, we will be passing the sock around at the end of the service so have your small donation ready!
 

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