Agnostic - but willing to change my views - convince me!

#41
jesusjones said:
all religion is just a croc of s***, its for people who cant face upto the fact that when they croak thats it, game over, no more, youve had your chance.

sorry but thats it, your weak , you cant handle the fact, keep giving up your sundays and worshiping the wonderful mystic man who will bet there to save you at the end , utter bolloxsl, why not go the full hog and kill loads of people you dont even know if you want to take religion to its extreme.

its utter shite.
You seem rather vague about your stance on the issue.
 
#42
five-minute-fagbreak said:
personaly I think religion is the cause of enough shite in this world, but it would be nice to believe there was something to look forward to when we peg it!
... or can anyone talk me into going to church later instead of the pub :wink:
Hmmm, this is either a rather elaborate Wah and you're leading us up the garden path in order to deliver some killer punchline, or you are sadly genuine on a godforsaken Sunday... :)

If it's the former, I hope it's good.
If the latter, you're rather brave to ask, considering that a lot of people believe that life's a one-shot deal, so make of it what you will, do your worst and there is no comeback or discussion to be had.

Chacun a son gout - each to their own.

However, religion is too often confused with spirituality - in this world they hardly come as close as ships passing in the night.
I tend towards believing that your sense of spirituality is up to you - you can choose to believe that your unique, individual spirit - what makes you, you - comes from some greater creative force, and will therefore return to it after the body dies.
Or you can decide that spirituality equals X religion and regular attendance at its particular castle on the ground will guarantee you entry to Heaven, even when St Peter or his other-religion equivalent is bouncer on the door.
Or you can say feck-em-all, this is it, one-shot-deal, and no comebacks, party’s over.

I think organised religion has terribly muddied the waters by insisting that you choose a particular route and then play by that chosen religion's laws and mandates and thou-must-nots (often misinterpreted/human-made) or you won't get to heaven etc etc. and, above all, thou shalt reject any other path.
Don’t like it? – see you outside, fecker.
The cause of many a crusade.
Load of old bollox, IMHO.

Being human isn't easy.
Yet if we are true to all the potential greatness in us - humility, kindness, leadership, camaraderie, lending strength when others are feeling weak, genuinely caring for other souls adrift in the same sea, doing what we can to make a difference in other peoples’ lives – not only our loved ones - and above all having a sense of humour at the ridiculousness of it all – then we are doing the best we can.

‘Judgement day’ – which can be any day you like - is only about you yourself reviewing what you could have done better, and learning from it.

Just my opinion, but I assure you, you will not be going straight downstairs when you die if you go to the pub instead of church - or both - or neither.

Having said all that, I’m possibly getting far too philosophical in my old age and I personally think that you, sir, are a canute of the highest order for inducing me to position my feet for a thorough roasting in the NAAFI bar. :)
 
#43
Good evening gentlemen,

An interesting topic Mr Gren, it has also given me a great deal of troubled thought. The idea that when I die, there is no afterlife, but instead eternal nothingness is very difficult for me to come to terms with, but fairly easy for me to perceive. Do you remember the year 1624? Probably not, because none of us existed. Will we remember the year 2624? No, because none of us will exist. Why then should death be any different than before birth? I find it all extremely terrifying, it makes me feel that I must achieve absolutely everything possible in life & the prospect of wasting my time watching daytime T.V. must be near sacrilege. Naturally the only comfort to these thoughts is that it is never possible to achieve all ones goals. Yet, it also turns that fine ideal on its head, if I am going to die what’s the point of doing anything at all? Does it really matter what shoes I wear or what people think of me if I’m going to die? I think I would agree with Mr Hobbes that life is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutal and short".

There have been some moments though, when I thought I saw a flash of the supernatural. In jest I attempted to read & understand ‘A Brief History of Time’, by Stephen Hawking & have also looked a little into Quantum Mechanics. Some of the things I have read seem little more than magic imho, such as the inability to observe things on a Quantum level. This has made me ponder whether there may be some greater power at work, outside of space & time.

I do not believe in the Christian God, nor any other God, what would mortal man know? It is only natural to question our origins & most of the religions in this world are an ancient answer to it all. We’ve only been on this planet for an extremely brief period of time compared to the Dinosaurs & we are even more insignificant compared to early life, this was once demonstrated in measurements with each year as a mm. Human history reached the end of a kitchen table, Dinosaurs went on for a few miles & early cellular life went across the Atlantic to New York. 8O

The only religion that did appeal to me is that of Thélèma, although it can’t really be described as a religion. Its main philosophy is ‘Fay Ce que voudras’, which I have in my signature & can roughly be translated to ‘Do what thou wilt’ AKA do whatever makes you happy. I think I find this far more appealing than following some set of rules made up a few centuries ago from dubious sources.

There is also Desiderata, which I think provides some rich advice on how to live ones life: http://www.fleurdelis.com/desiderata.htm

I remain, &c.

~D.C.
 
#44
Have you tried a near death experience? It worked for me, I joined the mob as an Agnostic and enjoyed doing a bit of padre baiting. When I first came under mortar fire though, I found I was praying like ten Popes!

The blessed virgin of the screaming hot shrapnel saved me from myself, at least for a while!
 
#45
If the christian god is supposedly a forgiving god, then why cant you live your life the way you want and be forgiven when you get to the pearly gates?

Personally I cant stand the christian church. Throughout history all they have been about is greed, oppression and violence.

"You will worship our god and give us all your possesions to secure your place in heaven or we'll send the men with the thumbscrews around!"

"You will live your life the way we say or you'll go to a place we made up that is full of fire and brimstone with some fella with a forked tail and red skin, however it doesnt matter that we dont practice what we preach!"

Nah! the Romans had it right at one point when they fed the christians to the lions. They never should have stopped.
 
#46
buggrit said:
If the christian god is supposedly a forgiving god, then why cant you live your life the way you want and be forgiven when you get to the pearly gates?

Personally I cant stand the christian church. Throughout history all they have been about is greed, oppression and violence.

"You will worship our god and give us all your possesions to secure your place in heaven or we'll send the men with the thumbscrews around!"

"You will live your life the way we say or you'll go to a place we made up that is full of fire and brimstone with some fella with a forked tail and red skin, however it doesnt matter that we dont practice what we preach!"

Nah! the Romans had it right at one point when they fed the christians to the lions. They never should have stopped.
A-fcuking-men
:evil: i fcuking hate religion and all it's caused.

Im off to petrol bomb the local congregation of happy-clappy,tree hugging, mongtards
 
#47
I think Douglas Adams summed it up quite nicely for me, excuse the quote if it's innacurate.

"Isn’t it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?".
 
#48
Ah! cernunnos, I had to smile at your post. As a kid I was told that there

are no atheists in foxholes. I had an experience very similar to yours.

I agree, it soon wears off once we are safe and sound.

Dashing Chap, I found your post very interesting particularily the 1624

2624 analogy. I have long shared that view. It didn't matter before

and it won't matter then. I also share your view on Stephen Hawking's

book. I don't have the intellect for it but I find it fascinating to struggle

with. Some concepts just tantalisingly out of reach.

I know that this is the NAAFI and one should not pontificate on this thread,

but I wonder if you blokes would indulge me while I quote the final

passage. You can slag me of afterwards.

From A Brief History of Time.

"........if we do discover a complete theory, it should in time be

understandable in broad principle by everyone, not just a few scientists.

Then we shall all, philosophers, scientists and just ordinary people, be

able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we

and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the

ultimate triumph of human reason-for then we should know the mind of

God."

I find that exhilarating.
 

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#49
aaaaahh, where to start?

We do live forever. When we die, we are subsumed by all of life around us, and continue in one form or another pretty much indefinitely.

When your body rots away, the very act of rotting is feeding bacteria, and bugs, and insects, which continue on and breed or die, and then are subsumed. The broken down mass of your flesh fertilises the ground, which allows plants to grow.

The water of which you are made returns to the soil, and eventually to the seas, where it is recycled for ever more.

The atoms that make up your body continue in one form or another forever.

This, everything that is you, apart from conscious thought, lives for ever more.

There is a higher purpose to life. It is not merely to live and die, but to do your bit in ensuring the continuance of your genes. In this aim, we improve ourselves in order to be more successful at breeding, and thus, get the better specimins to breed with, thus further enhancing our genes and improving the survivability of our race.

Part of this process is where we try and create peace, enlightenment, harmony within the social groups of our species - we don't really want death, destruction and war, as it threatens the survival of our genes, but where an outside human force DOES threaten our genetic/social groups, we wage death, destruction and war on other groups to ensure the survival of our own.

So, looking for a higher purpose? There it is.

To take that to the next logical step, our brains have given us an understanding of magical things, like electricity, computers, transport and the like. We are evolving as a species, but as a social sentient entity, we are evolving MUCH faster. Our comprehension of that which is around us and threatens our survival as a species, drives us ever onwards. Our next higher purpose to ensure the long-term survival of our species is to have locations other than Earth alone on which to breed and spread, as we are now aware of the history and risk of cataclysmic destruction of life on this earth.

Is there a God? No, there is darkness, ignorance and superstition, which, in the light of knowledge, is fading, albeit far too slowly!

:D
 
#50
As a side note, in Cambridge yesterday i saw a guy stood on a stool simply holding a sign that read:

"God told me that she prefers athiests"

It took all of about 2 seconds for some religious nutcase to start having a go... class.

After all, god is a white guy with a beard :roll:
 
#52
Good on you Biped. Matter is neither created nor destroyed......old

Jim Williams told me that in 1949. I think your post is what the

theologians would tell us if they had the balls.

Not sure that the Old Ladies in church would look forward to being

re-cycled.
 
#53
My Sky Pixie is infinitely superior to other Sky Pixies that inferior religions may try to sell you on.

Do not follow the gourd, the Sandal is the One True Sandal, and forsaking all others thou shalt follow it.

I also know where there are some very reasonably priced (free with prayer) Juniper Berries.

Ahh, here come those nice chaps in the white coats..............................
 
#54
And on the seventh day, God smiled and said "this shall be a day to eat a mahoosive cooked breakfast", "then shall I readeth the Sunday papers and strolleth to the house of worship called the Dog and Gun where I shall partaketh of the holy water called beer.This shall be followed by sport on the telly, another mahoosive cooked meal and Holy communion wine."

Here endeth the lesson.
 
#55
And since this is the NAAFI, and while we are on the subject of religion,

subsumation and recycling, it is as well to note that the scientists tell us

that every drop of liquid on earth has been drunk at least once by

someone else. Unkind remarks used to be passed by OZ and Kiwi

rugby teams with reference to this phenomena and British beer.

But it may give some of you a philosophical pause for thought as you

raise that glass tonight.

Your Very Good Health Gentlemen.
 
#56
Morning chaps!

My most sincere apologies for having the audacity to post a serious reply in the most revered NAAFI bar, but I feel obliged to answer Mr Gren’s request & I do find this subject quite fascinating.

I think we can conclude, as far as most of the replies go, that a religious answer in the traditional sense is not sufficient for the more sceptical modern mind. That is not to say though, that science can prove everything.

Here’s one unusual paradigm, dogs apparently see the world in black & white, lets say for hypothetical reasons that human beings had this vision of the world instead & colours as we know them are no longer a visual concept. Red & blue no longer exist, we cannot see them ergo they have no names, all we are able to see are the varying shades of grey. Let’s say we had all the technology of our time, but when gazing upon the colour spectrum all we are able to pick out is dark grey rising to white, even infra-red would not be translated so easily because we are unable to understand what ‘red’ is. A rose may still be red to the world, but not to us, all we can tell is that it’s a slightly darker shade of grey when compared to a daffodil. No one would ever know what red was because nobody had ever seen a colour before & if you picked the rose & proclaimed it was red you’d probably get some rather odd looks, yet clearly we are surrounded by colour everywhere we go.
How would we ever be able to comprehend a rainbow? In the world of grey the sky would be uniform with a few white, fluffy, clouds… Yet clearly a rainbow exists.

My point here is that we are severely restricted by our senses, taste/touch/sight/smell/hearing etc. We can only perceive the world in this manner, but that’s not to say that there aren’t things out there that don’t exist merely because we cannot sense them. Perhaps there are creatures on another planet with another sense, for the sake of argument lets call it a mllar, with this mllar sense they can see into the different dimensions, which can be considered mathematically, but never experienced or proved first hand by us because we cannot sense them. Does this mean they do not exist :?

Now my final point is that God, according to those scientist chaps, exists outside of time & space, or in other words, in another dimension.


&c,

~D.C.
 
#57

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#58
Dashing_Chap said:
Morning chaps!

My most sincere apologies for having the audacity to post a serious reply in the most revered NAAFI bar, but I feel obliged to answer Mr Gren’s request & I do find this subject quite fascinating.

I think we can conclude, as far as most of the replies go, that a religious answer in the traditional sense is not sufficient for the more sceptical modern mind. That is not to say though, that science can prove everything.

Here’s one unusual paradigm, dogs apparently see the world in black & white, lets say for hypothetical reasons that human beings had this vision of the world instead & colours as we know them are no longer a visual concept. Red & blue no longer exist, we cannot see them ergo they have no names, all we are able to see are the varying shades of grey. Let’s say we had all the technology of our time, but when gazing upon the colour spectrum all we are able to pick out is dark grey rising to white, even infra-red would not be translated so easily because we are unable to understand what ‘red’ is. A rose may still be red to the world, but not to us, all we can tell is that it’s a slightly darker shade of grey when compared to a daffodil. No one would ever know what red was because nobody had ever seen a colour before & if you picked the rose & proclaimed it was red you’d probably get some rather odd looks, yet clearly we are surrounded by colour everywhere we go.
How would we ever be able to comprehend a rainbow? In the world of grey the sky would be uniform with a few white, fluffy, clouds… Yet clearly a rainbow exists.

My point here is that we are severely restricted by our senses, taste/touch/sight/smell/hearing etc. We can only perceive the world in this manner, but that’s not to say that there aren’t things out there that don’t exist merely because we cannot sense them. Perhaps there are creatures on another planet with another sense, for the sake of argument lets call it a mllar, with this mllar sense they can see into the different dimensions, which can be considered mathematically, but never experienced or proved first hand by us because we cannot sense them. Does this mean they do not exist :?
This being the case, everything and anything that out imaginations can dream of should exist, just like my Flying Spaghetti Monster (may his Noodly appendage touch your ignorant soul).

If it cannot be proven to exist, then one cannot kill or maim others for not believing it, as the churches have done and continue to do. Insult the Islamic sky-faery and you'll get your ass fatwahed.

Just because something cannot be proven to not exist does not mean it automatically exists. Hence the Spaghetti Monster - you can't prove He doesn't exist, and thus, I expect you, as an act of 'faith' to believe that He does, and that, despite being made out of meatballs, fine sauce and pasta, He has, as His reason for existance, human frailties and concerns to fix.

Dashing_Chap said:
Now my final point is that God, according to those scientist chaps, exists outside of time & space, or in other words, in another dimension.
No he doesn't. Over 90% of scientists (at a rough guess) don't believe he exists, whether that's within or outside time and space.

Science is something that is done in terms of well-educated guesses, or empirical evidence. The bible, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism and all the other 'belief systems' provide none of them.

Do try and avoid the suggestion that science and religion are bedfellows would you?
 
#59
I LOVE RELIGION!!!!!!


All of the sex, pornography, mind altering substances, booze, loads of money and no requirement to worry about anything at all for ever! It's f***ing great!!
 
#60
cernunnos said:
Have you tried a near death experience? It worked for me, I joined the mob as an Agnostic and enjoyed doing a bit of padre baiting. When I first came under mortar fire though, I found I was praying like ten Popes!

The blessed virgin of the screaming hot shrapnel saved me from myself, at least for a while!
I've found myself praying to the god of hesco, shit fuck bollocks cunt, that and one of baldricks bullets shoud see you through :D
 

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