Discussion in 'Military Discipline' started by Sheepay, Mar 23, 2013.
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Chap 2 identifies the roles of both appointments. They're on questionable grounds if that's the practice and it looks like someone is reading the rules and interpreting them in a manner which suits an agenda rather than the fairness of the process. Being ordered to take disciplinary action against another soldier without being in possession of the full facts, which may be inaccurate or may even be disagreed with by the ordered 'originating officer' is a dubious practice at best. What your CSM is doing is engineering the disciplinary code to suit his personal goal. This denies the soldier natural justice and essentially makes a mockery of the disciplinary system and is precisely the sort of conduct which has brought the system into question. All he achieves here is a return to the 1950's attitude of "March the guilty bastard in Sergeant Major!" If this practice happened elsewhere, your CSM would have his arse handed back to him in a sling. What would happen if the JNCO ordered to be the OO refused on the basis of lack of evidence? Would he charge the JNCO for failing to comply with an unlawful command? That would be interesting.
In a nutshell, he thinks he's being clever by 'bending the rules', but he's wrong and he needs disciplining himself, because he abuses his own position and the AGAI 67. He's not just bullied the subject, he's bullied the JNCO. An abuse of his own authority. What it also highlights is that he is aware that there is little evidence to support the original sanction and that it would fail if he was the OO, so in effect he's also failing in his duty to the chain of command.
AGAI 67 is fundamentally illegal, wish someone had the cahunas to take the MoD to court. I have a few friends who work in HR who looked at AGAI 67 they immediately went we want that system, means we can get away with this and this, which just proves that its a top down form of administrative bullying. Wish the Army would get it into its thick head its no longer a Cult and is now business, and that people who volunteered to work for the army are wishing to be employed not be part of a Cult.
No, it is not. Many Civvie firms would just sack their employees for infractions dealt with in AGAI 67, rather than rehabilitate the offender. Given the current climate and scrutiny of Military Law recently (civilian prosecutor if I am correct), I don't think the Legal Branch just chucked something together.
For the CSM in question, one day he'll be asked to review a punishment and he'll think he has the upper hand until the subject says 'Sorry, Sir, I don't accept your review, I'll take it higher' which they can do. Especially if his practice of ordering JNCOs to AGAI people on his behalf becomes common knowledge.
If he is trying to encourage his JNCOs to take some responsibility, a more effective and safer approach would be to AGAI both the defaulter and the JNCO that may have been in a position to do something about it.
ie two works parades for the litter bug, 4 for the JNCO that let it slide.
work parades, or community punishment as it was known at my place, OC got his knuckles rapped for that. Same for extras till some bright spark found out that extras at the time could only be given for an infraction whilst on guard, no more than seven extras and could only be given by a rank of Major. The extras also had to be further guard duty.
I will say it till I am blue in the face AGAI 67 is flawed and illegal, yes there needs to be a punishment of sorts however loopholes where the management can overstep there authority or bend the rules need to be stamped out. God help anyone who AGAI 67 me. However I do no wrong, work hard and am puntual.
I thought it was common practice to be AGAI'd by the orderly corporal and then the SCM/SSM/CSM was your reviewing officer? I always thought that was a bit dodgy, but hey, do you take your extras for being late or do you challenge the system, rock the boat and generally get regarded as a bit of a twat by everyone and ruin your life?
How can work parades be illegal when they're no different to 'community service' on civvie street?
I only ever had to AGAI a few people when I was in (quite often left running a Troop as a senior Full Screw), but some of the things I did AGAI lads for would have been official warnings on civvie street and a couple of them means an appointment with the dole office. I'd rather spend a couple of hours litter picking than telling a man in a cheap suit what I've done to find work over the last fortnight.
There's no way the AGAI system is illegal. It may be applied in an illegal way by some but if it is then it's open to challenge.
Or is your knowledge of the legality of AGAI67 the same as your knowledge of an employer's ability to reclaim overpayments from their employees? You do seem to make a few legal statements that turn out to be completely wrong...
You truly are a clown. What colour is the sun on your planet?
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Davetheclown - I would love, just love, to AGAI you. And then watch the crashing realisation hit you, of the fact that you aren't a Barrister, and would be completing the sanction I had just given. Or you'd be charged, under s12 AFA06.
You need to ask a grown up to explain it to you. You have an (possibly drunken) understanding of the bare bones but you need it fully explaining to you.
The punishment/remedial action is only half the story anyway. It is recorded, that is the main thing. Get a few minor sanctions on your record and your CoC can start looking at discharge. Just like civvie street where formal written warnings/verbals etc are used.
I think what the duty Barrack room lawyer means is that the punishment should fit the crime, I.e. if someone is consistently late then it could be seen as appropriate to give them show parades, showing themselves on time, but not appropriate to f*ck them about by making them show in No.2 dress when their dress isn't the issue.
As for the abuse of power bit, I agree with another poster that SNCOs should be gripping JNCOs who are not carrying out their duties correctly. The problem imo is that there is a distinct lack of leadership in some cases. 'Likership' being the want in mant cases. This has meant that some absolute tw*ts have been drawing a wage, when actually, had the correct procedures been followed they'd have either sorted themselves out or been given the boot at the appropriate time.
If only I could be bothered to turn my laptop on, this rant would have been far more eloquent!
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If a CO orders an OC to AGAI someone, then the subject objects/complains, guess who the report goes to and stops with (its not the OC, but they have the same letters) abusive system in some units
This happens quite a lot, its akin to a Magistrate knowing that a reprobate on the street is up to no good and ordering a police officer to arrest him just so that the Magistrate can finally get him in court. Is that a fair procedure?
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