AGAI 67 - Back to the shop floor for discipline

#1
AGAI 67 is due to come in Jan 05, to quote the introduction
'A complete rewrite in order to provide the CO with a more flexible discipline system has been developed and endorsed by ECAB. A training programme is due to begin in Sep 04 and the implementation date is 1 Jan 05'.
http://www.army.mod.uk/servingsoldi.../current_issues/training_version__agai_67.htm
This site gives a full break down on all the different chapters.
This seems like a great idea as JNCOs now have the back up to discipline troops who may need corrective training, without Command being called in to the process to deal with the shop floor.
Is this the way ahead?
Does anyone think that this may give JNCOs the capabilty to conduct themselves and influence soldiers to progress from the culture of the few who believe that they are beyond mil law?
Looking forward to your replies.
 
#2
Looking forward to AGAI 67 coming in.

Now when there is a problem within the troop or section if matey boy Fullscrew has not taken action to sort out the problem he will be dealt with instead.

I believe most units are initially going to cap the amount of punishments allowed to be dished out at LCpl/Cpl level. Just to keep an eye on the more excitable guys!

But will sproggy LCpls/Cpls have the courage to tackle unruly long in the tooth Siggies? or will they buckle to peer pressure and let things continue to slip.

Either way targets will fall when hit.

Watch and shoot, watch and shoot.
 
#3
:roll:Think it has to be a good thing in the long run, however I can't see it happening over night. As you well know most JNCOs at the moment are just not capable of instilling the discipline. It’s hard enough to get SNCOs to grip their personnel let alone a LCpl or Cpl. (especially in a comms environment). Hopefully with the correct guidance we should soon be back on the road to having once again NCOs that can actually instil discipline. Look forward to monitoring the situation and seeing it develop in the years to come. It is though going to be some time before we change or have any influence on the culture of Pte soldiers believing that they are beyond the Military Law. This is a whole new ball game, lets hope it makes a difference. The biggest item to hurt them will be the additional punishment of”Severe Displeasures”. (especially those who get done for drink driving) When the reality sinks in that they will have to mark time for the next 1 –3 years, what incentive are we gong to have to retain them. Lets hope that we learn to walk first before we can run. (wouldn’t you just love to be in a training establishment next year!)
 
#4
AGAI 67 is a double edged sword............Total crap that it will support JNCOs in the Discipline Chain. If your JNCO is not able to command the respect of the troops he has been placed over then he is not worthy of the rank, if you wrote his pen picture then you too have failed!!

That said it has also been used where no evidence of wrong doing has been found ( and I can cite two cases anecdotedly and one from personal experience)!! No evidence means no formal disciplinary procedure and that means no right of appeal. You are allowed to state your case, but that is as far as it goes.

AGAI 67 to my understanding is designed to bring Army PLC into line with civvy disciplinary practices...so Industrial tribunals should feature heavily in the planning years to come, WHAT you dont have the right to appeal!!..........complete tosh....European Labour Laws and Human Rights both say you have the right to appeal to an INDEPENDANT Body.

AGAI 67.......yep: just what we've been waiting for.
 
#5
sounds good to me, having dealt with LCpls flapping like fcuk - thinking they are in trouble - sound guidance/clear guidance will be a god send
 
#6
LW, you do have the right to appeal, Any soldier who is awarded punishment under AGAI67 has the right to demand a review (the award sheet needs both to sign to validate) it will then be reviewed at the appropriate rank for the award. The punishment could then be quashed lessened or taken higher dependant on the facts.

The basic right of redress under section 180 AA1955 still remain and can still be requested.

AGAI 67 is "Human rights compliant in line with the law"

Moonshine has hit some valid points, it will be fun to see how it pans out especially in our Corps with young JNCO`s and how they cope with their responsabilities and peer pressure but what they must not forget is if they do not take action then action will be taken against them.

Also the introduction of verbal warnings and promotion penalties etc gives extra clout against repeat offenders. Identify the dross, give them enough rope to hang themselves and its goodnight my friend.


If your unit is not giving AGAI 67 briefings out right now then they are well behind the curve.

AGAI 67 has become an ITD, in that unless you have been properly briefed then you are not able to use its powers. This will become especially important in any case with a redress.
 
#8
Having attended a brief on AGAI 67 there is only one inconsolable truth. IT WON'T WORK! Why? Because the people who have to oversee and confirm the discipline ie those above us lowly JNCO's, don't understand it either. Also even i realised if they throw out any report requesting punishment for an offence it is less paper work and one less incident to put into any report which evaluates any platoon, company or unit. At the end of the day the OC and CSM etc want their sub unit to look good for the purposes of their careers.
 
#9
Firstly LW, If I dished out 2 extras to say a LCpl then he would sign with me on the award sheet that he agrees to the punishment, that then is filed with the RSM (he is the focal point for AGAI 67) on that award sheet is a box that says I wish for a review of this award LCpl then ticks that and this punishment goes to the next level (typically the RSM but could be lower) who will then review the award and either uphold quash or amend the punishment as he/she sees fit.

So I could not just dish out the extras and over rule the LCpl right to review, there is full transparency.


patchemup said:
Having attended a brief on AGAI 67 there is only one inconsolable truth. IT WON'T WORK! Why? Because the people who have to oversee and confirm the discipline ie those above us lowly JNCO's, don't understand it either. Also even i realised if they throw out any report requesting punishment for an offence it is less paper work and one less incident to put into any report which evaluates any platoon, company or unit. At the end of the day the OC and CSM etc want their sub unit to look good for the purposes of their careers.
Hmm a bit of a limited and cynical response, and your reasons why it will not work do not back up your case. AGAI 67 is very simple to understand, it has been designed in part to simplify the process and remove some of red tape and time wasting that the current disciplinary process takes.

REMEMBER AGIA67 is for minor offences.

As for not keeping records etc, well that would make any award illegal and if you put in your redress (S180 AA1955) then your unit will not have a leg to stand on.

Remember that when a Soldier leaves a unit his AGAI67 awards remain in his last unit, they do not follow him/her. So the soldier gets a clean slate on posting.
 
#10
They are actually revoking the discipline procedures used in the Army some 30+ years ago.

It should work and I for one will ensure that my JNCO's use it (but don't abuse it).

Disco is correct is saying it is for minor offenses. Remember that before this change, any form of extras outside the disciplinary route (formal charge) were actually illegal. This now allows the JNCO's and SNCO's to reprimand those serving them without having to do so more formally and get the OC/CO involved.

Good thing, much needed and well done Army Legal.
 
#11
Thanks for your comments “Letterwritingman” I like the way that you have assume I wrote the pen pictures. How about what I inherited!! In my previous unit I had a fairly good bunch of NCOs who were more than able to command the respect that their rank and position deserved. However arriving in my new unit, to me the standard is appalling. But what is scarier it that the young TCs think their guys and girls are the dog’s nads. Obviously because this is their first unit they haven’t got a benchmark to work by and if you also have SCs who have limited exposure to Troops then what guidance and experience do the TCs have to judge how good or bad their NCOs are. (Maybe this is one for “Promotion Boards”) Anyway I’ve never been afraid to apply to moral component to my pen pictures and long may it last. You never know with the introduction of the new AGAI 67 we may even see an improvement in our NCOs performance, especially in the supervisory role. Some of them may even be worthy of getting X’s in the excellent box because of their performance as apposed to expecting it by right.
 
#13
moonshine said:
Thanks for your comments “Letterwritingman” I like the way that you have assume I wrote the pen pictures. How about what I inherited!! In my previous unit I had a fairly good bunch of NCOs who were more than able to command the respect that their rank and position deserved. However arriving in my new unit, to me the standard is appalling. But what is scarier it that the young TCs think their guys and girls are the dog’s nads. Obviously because this is their first unit they haven’t got a benchmark to work by and if you also have SCs who have limited exposure to Troops then what guidance and experience do the TCs have to judge how good or bad their NCOs are. (Maybe this is one for “Promotion Boards”) Anyway I’ve never been afraid to apply to moral component to my pen pictures and long may it last. You never know with the introduction of the new AGAI 67 we may even see an improvement in our NCOs performance, especially in the supervisory role. Some of them may even be worthy of getting X’s in the excellent box because of their performance as apposed to expecting it by right.

A fair comment, but TC`s are only as good as the Staffy behind them, If your new TC is lacking then dig a little deeper and have a bit of a chat with his/her nanny.

:wink:
 
#14
Have to say the thread is showing that the troop staffys have got more work on their table. The TC will have to put the paperwork forward after agreement with the JNCOs reason for discipline. I may be wrong but the staffy will pick up the brunt of this work and could be in danger of dealing with a pile of discipline problems that he/she does not need. Plus a reputation of potentially having a troop of soldiers with discipline matters. Still think this is the way ahead but will create a lot of paperwork and questions over uncertainty of how the process works in the initial stages.
 
#15
I think AGAI 67 is going to be a very good thing even though i as a JNCO have only heard about this today by reading this thread, which i am not to happy about but then we are in the signals we cant be expected to communicate.

Although i think it is a good idea it will be hard to impiment, in my unit alone the siggys and some of the JNCOs walk around expecting everything to be done for them, and when asked to do something they think it is a democracy, what makes it worse is some of the SNCOS seem to allow it, and as a JNCO who would be more than happy to correct some of the attitudes that have been adopted i honestly think it will be a very long time before AGAI 67 starts to have the affect it was ment to have


but i will wait with baited breath first to see if my unit are actully going to tell us about it
and second to see the out come :?:
 
#16
'A complete rewrite in order to provide the CO with a more flexible discipline system has been developed and endorsed by ECAB. A training programme is due to begin in Sep 04 and the implementation date is 1 Jan 05'.

What is wrong with the current discipline system employded by HMG? I joined R Sigs in 1990 and am now employed by a different Corps but fully believe that the current rules and regs including discipline rules are fair providing they are understood fully by the soldier concerned. come on, how many soldiers break the rules!!!!!! only the pissed and unruly ones!!!!
 
#17
Caramba!

I've been out since 93 and joined in 81 so I might be missing summat.

I seem to recall that the job of J/SNCO's was the enforcement of discipline and leadership etc.

Did this change and did someone just remember it again??
 
#18
Speedkuff,

What changed was the PC mob effectivly outlawed "shop floor" discipline. Soldiers became more aware of their rights and the way AA1955 works thus creating a lot of "barrack room lawyers". The "duty of care" mind set is mostly responsable for this, recruits then join the field Army with a skewed perception of the powers that NCO`s have. "you cant touch me" etc

NCO`s were still enforcing discipline but having to use their chain of command to give out punishment, so every 2 weeks your in your 2`s dress for small misdemeanors. This takes away the chain of command from their core role.

AGAI 67 returns the power back to the shop floor and quashes the barrack room lawyer mind set.

My unit has struck early with AGAI 67 and it is paying off. Soldiers now know the cross hairs are on them and maybe they should just start to play the game a bit better.
:wink:
 
#20
No Im afraid its all gone wrong already.

A scheme that was implimented so that the Army could go back a little to the way it was with some sort of disciplinary rank structure (Deffinatly needed and a good thing) has gone horribly sour already.

It was put in place under the assumtion that we reside in a perfect little world where the junior members of a unit in their youth and inexperiance need a little helping hand in the right direction by their already trained and well ordered Shop floor supervisers. That is all well and good assuming that we live in that perfect little world but as many of us know, we dont!

The truth of it is, is that there is no significant change in the way the JNCO's percieve and treat their subordinates and in fact it seems only a new and legal way for SNCO's to single out unliked members of their respective sections and dole out unnescisary punishments where none or liitle is warrented. Most of us still get our customery slap on the wrist and talking to in the office, however, if you are one of the unlucky few who's "face doesnt fit" then stand by! You also have your power mad muppets who deside for what ever reason that they are in a bad mood today and you are going to be the brunt.

Now, the Army in its infinate wisdom did try to safeguard against this by making sure that the paperwork and the disciplinary action where witnessed by a slightly higher authority (Usually the Sergeant Major). This also gave the JCO/Private a chance to make a statement in his/her defence in the hope that when your a bit older and bolder you have a little more sense. This may be true, however, how many SSM's RSM's CSM's are going to seriously stand there and take the word of their TOMS over that of their SNCO's?, not only is that not the way its done by tradition, but they just happen to be in the same "big boys club" (Mess) together and arent likely to make the stand against a potentially popular member.

This scenario is obviously not true in all cases and i do believe the thought was their and there is somthing needed to fill that obvious gap. however to curb such abuse maybe they could restrict the use of AGIA67 to L/Cpls and CPLs? That said, the caliber of JNCO's and their discplinary/Leadership skills leaves alot to be desired these days. But in summary, lets not make the best of a bad situation, let us find the right solution as AGIA67 certainly isnt it. thankyou 8O
 

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