Africa - at last someone speaks the truth...

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by labrat, Jul 6, 2005.

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  1. Cutaway

    Cutaway LE Reviewer

    This info following on from one of the few judges not to have his head up his arrse :

    http://newsbox.msn.co.uk/article.aspx?as=adimarticle&f=uk_-_olgbtopnews&t=4023&id=1018192&d=20050706&do=http://newsbox.msn.co.uk&i=http://newsbox.msn.co.uk/mediaexportlive&ks=0&mc=0&ml=ma&lc=en&ae=windows-1252
    We should be out of the Great American Crusade in the sandpit, and start to change regimes where people are being really oppressed.
    It'd be a damn sight more effective in making life better for the average African than singing a couple of songs to a bunch of soap-dodging Rainbow Warrors.
     
  2. Note the Beeb's "last word" spin: "He has business interests across Africa."

    Suddenly his view will be meaningless to those on the Left
     
  3. The Colonial powers, though some times very brutal, like the Belgian occupation of the Congo (Zaire) meant at least the african populations were not fighting each other, now its all factional and tribal, one side massacres the other, Hutus genocide against the Tutsis in Rwanda etc. But the worst thing, after the tribal/ factional/ religious confilicts is the corruption... of all the western aid money pouring in a lot of it has gone to buying weapons and flash cars... i have not seen one african leader appear on the news with out fleets of mercedes limos etc... there is no such thing as no corruption ever, but lets hope the G 8 can reduce the huge abuse of western aid that has gone on in the past from continuing
     
  4. Having been to africa and seeing some of the poverty first hand, these people really do need help, But when you see the aid workers driving around in brand spanking new 4x4, that have all the extra's such as heated leather seats etc.... it does make you wonder where your money you give to charity goes, if the aid agencys havent skimmed off some of the cash for vehicle like the one above then the palms being greased of who knows who, The people them selves who really need it,only see a very small amount which is not enough to solve the situation.

    Writing of third world debt will not accomplish anything for there countrys economy, it will not grow strong over night, and they be able to look after themselves.Due to corruption and officals out there making sure they are well comensated first. The debt will rack up again with in a short space of time.

    There are really only 4 courses of action we can do

    1, Carry on giving to charities, where the people will never end up learning to help them selves.
    2, Invade and depose the warlords , term cut of the head and the rest of the snake will die comes to mind.
    3, let the people die and turn a blind eye to the whole thing.
    4, nuke the countries and wipe the whole lot out , so not having to give aid again, making the country richer.

    The people out there have said they dont really want hand outs, they would prefer to have the tools so they can rebuild themselves, but they cannot do it why there is war raging and not seeing any of the charitable cash.
    so this leaves 2 option.
    1, nuke em
    2, invade and let the people rebuild themselves.
     
  5. I agree with Cuts on his point. We need to pull out of the sandpit and go do something bloody useful like get rid of Mad Dog Mugabe. The spams want to show how big and tough they are on the international stage let them sort Iraq and Afghanistan themselves.

    Mugabe is not doing anything to help the people of Zimbabwe. He is a complete madman who, in my opinion, truly does view his people as "my little playthings". I seriously doubt the man has any ability to understand the effect of his actions. I would not think he cares an iota anyway, even if he could step beyond his sociopathic tendencies. Mugabe thinks nothing of wiping out people and justifying his actions with the most spurious of excuses. He is dangerous and should be contained and the people of Zimbabwe freed from his tyranny.

    The aid issue is another thing altogether. Plenty of examples of the aid sent not getting past the government/warlord/other agency collection areas and being withheld from those whom need it or "lost" in the system. I do not donate because I refuse to help Mugabe and similar with their lifestyles. Same as I refuse to give money to beggars - I will buy them food or ring a shelter and try to get them a bed (funny how many of them tell you to f off when you do though). That way I know what I have done is not being pissed up a wall or given to someone else.

    I believe strongly in helping other people to have a better life. I am incredibly lucky I have clean water, food, clothes and shelter, many people do not. However, I do not think shovelling money at them is helping. They are in the same position as they were, or worse off, which is even more disgusting. That to me would suggest stop doing it. It is not working. Try another method.

    Remove Mugabe and similar for a start. If it has to go back to colonies across Africa then so be it. What is the difference between spending all this money giving aid (and getting that warm, fuzzy media glow) and having to spend the same amount administering a colony or at least reestablishing a country so that it is self sustaining? At present there is obviously no say over where the aid is going and whom is benefitting. If we had some administrative control surely that would benefit them more. Or am I being overly optimistic?
     
  6. The trouble being is that in all this you are fighting against the general apathy and indolence of black Africa. I grew up in Zimbabwe left in 1985 as the writing was on the wall then, subsequently served a tour in Angola in 1994 with HMF. Nothing whilst growing up or seen whilst in Angola has changed my conviction that Africa's worst enemy is her own people.

    In Zims it was heartbreaking to watch great institutiuons like the railways go from a bloody pleasant if slow way to get about, steam don't you know, to total crap. Same staff new managers! In many institutiuons and businesses this was the pattern. The new management came in, stole whatever wasn't nailed down, standards slipped as the workers were no longer being supervised and took their lead from those above and the whole set up fell into decay and ruin.

    Whilst white rule was inequitable it kept the workforce honest and focused. As there is no likelihood of ever returning to that state of affairs I suggest the only option remaining is masterly inactivity. When the last light goes out and they revert to the stoneage perhaps it can serve as a warning and theme park for westerners to experience the true awfulness of the dark ages.
     
  7. "Whilst white rule was inequitable it kept the workforce honest and focused. As there is no likelihood of ever returning to that state of affairs I suggest the only option remaining is masterly inactivity. When the last light goes out and they revert to the stoneage perhaps it can serve as a warning and theme park for westerners to experience the true awfulness of the dark ages. "

    There is real merit in this - and I can't help wondering if the western nation heads are doing precisely this. I've said on other threads that we shouldn't intervene because African nation heads have been able to continue with their "we don't get involved in a neighbour's troubles" attitude because there people have been kept alive with foreign aid and intervention. Perhaps they want African heads to see exactly what can be achieved with a lunatic in charge and no intervention....

    I tell you what really interests me - this is Mbeki's brother - the opinions he is expressing will surely make his President brother extremely uncomfortable. Mbeki himself is seriously considering removing land from white farmers in South Africa....
     
  8. ViroBono

    ViroBono LE Moderator

    A speaker on a BBC programme last night pointed out that 'Africa does not have bad government because it is poor; it is poor because it has bad government', which seemed a sensible summary.
     
  9. or

    Sadam is not doing anything to help the people of Iraq. He is a complete madman who, in my opinion, truly does view his people as "my little playthings". I seriously doubt the man has any ability to understand the effect of his actions. I would not think he cares an iota anyway, even if he could step beyond his sociopathic tendencies. Sadam thinks nothing of wiping out people and justifying his actions with the most spurious of excuses. He is dangerous and should be contained and the people of Iraq freed from his tyranny.
     
  10. Cutaway

    Cutaway LE Reviewer

    But if we are to believe the media hype, Mr Hussein is no longer in control of Iraq, wheras Oom Bob is running Zim. (into the dust...)
     
  11. Good Governance and Corruption are the keys. Without the West insisting on good governance and penalising states where this is not implemented, there will be no progress. Totally free elections are a rarity in Africa and the UN is, at the moment, assisting with The Democratic Republic of Congo's first free election since 1965. Until the West stops dealing with the 'dictators for life' and insists on a free opposition and transparent elections there is little hope for the average African. Despite the odd protest the West is/was happy to deal with the following long running dictators:

    Mobutu Sese Seko Congo/Zaire 1965-1997
    Gnassingbe Eyadema Togo 1967-2005
    El Hadj Omar Bongo Gabon 1967 -present
    Robert Mugabe Zimbabwe 1980-present
    Lansana Conte Guinea 1984-present
    Blaise Compaore Burkina Faso 1987-present

    The other curse of Africa is corruption which is endemic at every level. Unfortunately, until people report corruption because they believe it is wrong and not because they are jealous that they haven't got the patronage, there will be no progress. Unfortunately as well, corruption is seen as part of life in Africa and treated with a considerable degree of levity.

    The Congolese had a joke that President Mobutu was on his way back from a summit with Ronald Reagan and Francois Mitterand. The plane entered thick fog and the pilot announced that they were lost. Reagan stuck his hand out of the window and said 'We're over America because I just felt the Statue of Liberty'. A few hours later Mitterand stuck his arm out and announced: 'We're over France now because I just felt the Eiffel Tower'. Finally Mobuto stuck his hand out and pronounced: 'We are over Zaire'.
    'How do you know?' asked Reagan.

    'Because someone just stole my Rolex!'
     
  12. to be fair to the UN aid agences you can get a toyota landcruiser with all the goodies for about $12000 if your buying in bulk.
    most of the "nations" in africa were carved out by the west and never had much local support.
    then when it came time to pull out there was little infrastructure and few educated africans who knew how to run things certainly the Soviet union and the CIA played there games in africa which really helped matters
     
  13. This is odd... a thread where everyone is making sense. While I have a problem with the idea of colonial rule per se Zulu_w, being from Zim, make an excellent point that it might not be a bad idea to leave control of things like agriculture (for example) with people who know more than the square-root of fcuk-all about farming. I'm all for equality and justice and all that, but let's not forget about the practicalities of feeding a continent shall we? It's too bad that the revolutionaries in post-colonial states seem to overlook such trivialities.

    Better governance is a must also, the hard part is overcoming political cultures born of the Cold War experience where might=right. Another key to solving many of the problems on the continent which no-one has yet addressed is an arms embargo and export quotas on Mercedes Benz cars.

    And, to unfortunately paraphrase Sir Bob, the "trade thing" has to be sorted out. I'm a bright guy, but a legitimate reason why the EU spends 40% of its budget on a sector of the economy that employs 2% of the population is beyond me. chirac might come round, to the idea because he knows he's fcuked in the upcoming election, but persuading the US Congress (esp the House) to cut farming and heavy industrial subsidies will be impossible.
     
  14. I arrived here in Zimbabwe a week ago and have had one or two preconceptions confirmed and one or two dispelled; the queues at fuel stations are ridiculous, Harare seems to be functioning at about 30%, there is a real air of apprehension and tension about whether food will be available next week or month. The 'cleanup' has caused an enormous amount of real hardship. However, I've yet to see a thin cow, the roads are good and there's a lot of traffic (although 5l of blackmarket petrol can cost up to $50), there hasn't been a power cut or water shortage (although I'm in the stcks, not a city).
    The white Zimbabweans I've spoken to on the subject are openly and deeply contemptuous of the 'Live8' nonsense and everything about it. The single source of hope seems to rest in the advanced age of Mugabe and a possibly optimistic forecast that when he has gone there will be a more rational relationship between the Government and the people.