Afghanistan ammo usage

#1
Oh guess what the figures reported a while back were "understated:

Aug 2006 - Sept 2007


5.56mm Original report: 1,100,000 Actual: 2,020,000

7.62mm Original report: 1,600,000 Actual: 1,830,000

105mm Original report: 12,000 Actual: 25,000

Not to worry, no Government deception involved just forgot to include tracer and "other varieties". MoD said "much of the error was caused by a failure to include training and blank rounds used by troops around Camp Bastion to practise their "fire and manoeuvre" skills."

Really.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...FGGAVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2008/01/12/wafg112.xml
 
#2
Many weapons can take a variety of bullets. There are seven types of round for the 5.56mm calibre SA80 rifles, and five for the typical 7.62mm machine gun. Similarly, 105mm artillery ammunition has 11 varieties, including high explosive, smoke and illumination. Mr Ainsworth admitted his original answer had included only one type of 7.62mm, two types of 5.56mm and "some" of the 105mm variants.
Really? HE, ILLUM, SMK, MKR...........................err where's the other 7 'varieties'?
 
#3
Lies, spin etc, from this gubmint?
Who would have thought it.

Its a serious amount of ammunition to be getting through. It just goes to show the pressures our lads are under.
 
#4
To be fair to former full-time Defence Secretary John Reid, he said he hoped British forces would be able to leave Afghanistan "...without firing a single shot". Even so...
 
#5
I seem to remember a passage in the book '3 PARA' that was published late last year about the Bn's time in Helmand in '06 in which the CO, whilst in the middle of running a large operation in the green zone receives an e-mail from some bean counter at either the MOD or PJHQ questioning why he needed to use so much ammunuition.
 
#6
Invicta said:
I seem to remember a passage in the book '3 PARA' that was published late last year about the Bn's time in Helmand in '06 in which the CO, whilst in the middle of running a large operation in the green zone receives an e-mail from some bean counter at either the MOD or PJHQ questioning why he needed to use so much ammunuition.
He should of sent him a single round in an envelope with the suits name engraved on it CNUT :x
 
#7
Dunservin said:
To be fair to former full-time Defence Secretary John Reid, he said he hoped British forces would be able to leave Afghanistan "...without firing a single shot". Even so...
Are you sure he didn't say "without firing on single shot?
 
#8
monkeyspanker said:
Dunservin said:
To be fair to former full-time Defence Secretary John Reid, he said he hoped British forces would be able to leave Afghanistan "...without firing a single shot". Even so...
Are you sure he didn't say "without firing on single shot?
Maybe he did. Otherwise it was another one of those unfortunate ambiguous statements like Brown's "I have nothing but praise for the Armed Forces". After all, expending a couple of million rounds isn't exactly "firing a single shot", is it?
 
#9
threaders_vm said:
Many weapons can take a variety of bullets. There are seven types of round for the 5.56mm calibre SA80 rifles, and five for the typical 7.62mm machine gun. Similarly, 105mm artillery ammunition has 11 varieties, including high explosive, smoke and illumination. Mr Ainsworth admitted his original answer had included only one type of 7.62mm, two types of 5.56mm and "some" of the 105mm variants.
Really? HE, ILLUM, SMK, MKR...........................err where's the other 7 'varieties'?
I'll put my politicians head on and try and make up the numbers:

1 - L31 Mk1
2 - L31 Mk2
3 - L31 Mk3
4 - L31 Mk4
5 - L36 Smk
6 - L37 Mkr, Red
7 - L38 Mkr, Orange
8 - L43 Illum
9 - L50 HE
10 - L51 Smk RP
11 - HESH

Who can spot the dodgey ones..;)

S_R
 
#10
Sympathetic_Reaction said:
threaders_vm said:
Many weapons can take a variety of bullets. There are seven types of round for the 5.56mm calibre SA80 rifles, and five for the typical 7.62mm machine gun. Similarly, 105mm artillery ammunition has 11 varieties, including high explosive, smoke and illumination. Mr Ainsworth admitted his original answer had included only one type of 7.62mm, two types of 5.56mm and "some" of the 105mm variants.
Really? HE, ILLUM, SMK, MKR...........................err where's the other 7 'varieties'?
I'll put my politicians head on and try and make up the numbers:

1 - L31 Mk1
2 - L31 Mk2
3 - L31 Mk3
4 - L31 Mk4
5 - L36 Smk
6 - L37 Mkr, Red
7 - L38 Mkr, Orange
8 - L43 Illum
9 - L50 HE
10 - L51 Smk RP
11 - HESH

Who can spot the dodgey ones..;)

S_R
And of course, if you include PRAC, Drill and subcal. trainer, they could weasel out of a perjury charge in a court of law.

I wonder how many other ammo natures they're quoting here that were never issued in theatre?
 
#11
Invicta said:
I seem to remember a passage in the book '3 PARA' that was published late last year about the Bn's time in Helmand in '06 in which the CO, whilst in the middle of running a large operation in the green zone receives an e-mail from some bean counter at either the MOD or PJHQ questioning why he needed to use so much ammunuition.
Too be fair to the bean counting kunt .Too start with Helmand wasen't wall to wall news .And it was supposed to be a bit of peace keeping .
As long as the answer to the email was something like "oh fcuk i'll get some more out too u asap " he can be forgiven if he is still whinging beat him to death to save ammo :twisted: .
The only people on your side are by you or up to 10m back imho.
 
#12
threaders_vm said:
Many weapons can take a variety of bullets. There are seven types of round for the 5.56mm calibre SA80 rifles, and five for the typical 7.62mm machine gun. Similarly, 105mm artillery ammunition has 11 varieties, including high explosive, smoke and illumination. Mr Ainsworth admitted his original answer had included only one type of 7.62mm, two types of 5.56mm and "some" of the 105mm variants.
Really? HE, ILLUM, SMK, MKR...........................err where's the other 7 'varieties'?
I'd suspect the confusion is between types and natures.. 7.62mm is either loose for L96 or link. Link is either ball, 4 bit and 1 bit or tracer (I think) that's 5 "Types" of 7.62mm there.....
 
#14
Sympathetic_Reaction said:
threaders_vm said:
Many weapons can take a variety of bullets. There are seven types of round for the 5.56mm calibre SA80 rifles, and five for the typical 7.62mm machine gun. Similarly, 105mm artillery ammunition has 11 varieties, including high explosive, smoke and illumination. Mr Ainsworth admitted his original answer had included only one type of 7.62mm, two types of 5.56mm and "some" of the 105mm variants.
Really? HE, ILLUM, SMK, MKR...........................err where's the other 7 'varieties'?
I'll put my politicians head on and try and make up the numbers:

1 - L31 Mk1
2 - L31 Mk2
3 - L31 Mk3
4 - L31 Mk4
5 - L36 Smk
6 - L37 Mkr, Red
7 - L38 Mkr, Orange
8 - L43 Illum
9 - L50 HE
10 - L51 Smk RP
11 - HESH

Who can spot the dodgey ones..;)

S_R
Me!

HE - L31A3 only.
Smoke Screening BE - L45A2
Illum - L43A1 and L43A2
Fd HE Smoke Marker Red - L37A1
Orange - L38A1 and A2
Fd HE - PBX - L50A1

Drill - Shell L1A1

I am not going anywhere near the PH variants for the L119 gun!

The tw@ts got 11 by incorrectly counting the numbers of shells and their variants.

However if they can get these numbers wrong, what else have they got wrong?

Answer - lots :oops:
 
#15
Invicta said:
I seem to remember a passage in the book '3 PARA' that was published late last year about the Bn's time in Helmand in '06 in which the CO, whilst in the middle of running a large operation in the green zone receives an e-mail from some bean counter at either the MOD or PJHQ questioning why he needed to use so much ammunuition.
Can anyone tell me the average amount of rounds per kill?,rounds per wound?? Would it be possible to use a cheaper metal other than brass for
the cartridge case? (Brass being so expensive and left on b.field)
The Germans in ww2 used steal for cartridge cases.
:D :D :D
 
#16
boggy said:
Would it be possible to use a cheaper metal other than brass for
the cartridge case? (Brass being so expensive and left on b.field)
The Germans in ww2 used steal for cartridge cases.
quote]

I imagine it would be; but then we'd be on here complaining that we are given sub-standard munitions. Can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.
 
#17
boggy said:
Invicta said:
I seem to remember a passage in the book '3 PARA' that was published late last year about the Bn's time in Helmand in '06 in which the CO, whilst in the middle of running a large operation in the green zone receives an e-mail from some bean counter at either the MOD or PJHQ questioning why he needed to use so much ammunuition.
Can anyone tell me the average amount of rounds per kill?,rounds per wound?? Would it be possible to use a cheaper metal other than brass for
the cartridge case? (Brass being so expensive and left on b.field)
The Germans in ww2 used steal for cartridge cases.
:D :D :D
Whilst one would never wish to limit ammuniton usage, I have to note a tendency for usage rates to escalate for no obvious reason. It does seem to happen that if A Coy used 5,000rds one night then B Coy seemed to have to use 6,000 the following! Just an observation... :roll:

Any idiot can blast off ammuniton. Application of EFFECTIVE fire needs a degree of control, and is the true mark of the professional. I do not see why some rapid escalation in usage should not be explained by the forward commander...

The standard rule of thumb used to be that you had to shoot a man's weight of bullets to kill him. I suspect that this has now been exceeded.

Yes, you can use steel (as do the Russians), however it rusts. Brass is still better. Brass usage is not the major factor in ammo cost. The increased usage of "complex" ammo such as 40mm grenades and Javelin is however...

BTW, I suspect that the 105 problem is that the "standard" HE round is MRF, however there were a lot of PD issued in lieu.
 
#18
HE117 said:
boggy said:
Invicta said:
I seem to remember a passage in the book '3 PARA' that was published late last year about the Bn's time in Helmand in '06 in which the CO, whilst in the middle of running a large operation in the green zone receives an e-mail from some bean counter at either the MOD or PJHQ questioning why he needed to use so much ammunuition.
Can anyone tell me the average amount of rounds per kill?,rounds per wound?? Would it be possible to use a cheaper metal other than brass for
the cartridge case? (Brass being so expensive and left on b.field)
The Germans in ww2 used steal for cartridge cases.
:D :D :D
Whilst one would never wish to limit ammuniton usage, I have to note a tendency for usage rates to escalate for no obvious reason. It does seem to happen that if A Coy used 5,000rds one night then B Coy seemed to have to use 6,000 the following! Just an observation... :roll:

Any idiot can blast off ammuniton. Application of EFFECTIVE fire needs a degree of control, and is the true mark of the professional. I do not see why some rapid escalation in usage should not be explained by the forward commander...

The standard rule of thumb used to be that you had to shoot a man's weight of bullets to kill him. I suspect that this has now been exceeded.

Yes, you can use steel (as do the Russians), however it rusts. Brass is still better. Brass usage is not the major factor in ammo cost. The increased usage of "complex" ammo such as 40mm grenades and Javelin is however...

BTW, I suspect that the 105 problem is that the "standard" HE round is MRF, however there were a lot of PD issued in lieu.
I was watching a programme called Weaponology on the Discovery channel about sniper rifles. The presenter claimed that during the Vietnam War, it took an average of 20,000 rds to claim a kill of 1 VietCong, compared to a sniper at the time who needed 3 rds.
 
#19
boggy said:
Invicta said:
I seem to remember a passage in the book '3 PARA' that was published late last year about the Bn's time in Helmand in '06 in which the CO, whilst in the middle of running a large operation in the green zone receives an e-mail from some bean counter at either the MOD or PJHQ questioning why he needed to use so much ammunition.
Can anyone tell me the average amount of rounds per kill?,rounds per wound?? Would it be possible to use a cheaper metal other than brass for
the cartridge case? (Brass being so expensive and left on b.field)
The Germans in ww2 used steal for cartridge cases.
:D :D :D
Cartridge brass is, in general, the best material for small arms ammunition. It is all to do with the ductility of cartridge brass which assists the production process, rearward obturation in the chamber and ease of extraction of the fired case. Having said that, brass is far from ideal that is why zillions is being spent on experiments with case-less small arms ammunition. The Germans did use steel in WW2 but only because they could not get enough brass. The use of steel is common in larger calibres such as cannon and artillery natures. FFS keep it quiet that there may be a cheaper alternative and that spent cases are being left after a fire-fight or the guys over there will soon be instructed to each carry an empty sand bag and pick up their empty cases.
 
#20
Yep it has to be brass for cartridge cases. Imagine if the boys opened up a box of carts only to find they had rusted. There would be (and quite rightly) howls of indignation.

The British Army didn't come to use brass as a standard for no reason. It is the best material available for the reasons AT55 expounded above.

In general WP countries used steel for SAA and smaller calibre rounds (100mm, 130mm etc.). Because it was cheap!

Edited once for cr@p spelling.
 

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