AFGHANISTAN 2021:. THE BUTTERFLY EFFECT

Wong again, as usual. Try picking another country for where I live, and where you can do some more whataboutery.
Do you agree that this kind of behaviour can't be left to repeatedly occur? If so, the debate is about 'how' and not 'whether'?

For the record, I think the 'how' is likely to be counterproductive - but would caveat that by confessing I don't have several centuries of close dealings with Central Asians to base my views on.

I'd also observe that the 'how' is quite different from what the Uighur equivalent of An Phoblacht tells us.
 

Strait_Jacket

War Hero
No idea, but, "Would you kindly stop murdering our women and kids?" is "請別屠殺我們的母子?"

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‘It’s COIN, not genocide.’

Some take there mate. Presumably the French, post-Bataclan, would be similarly justified in imprisoning, enslaving, sterilising, organ-harvesting, torturing and educating the Islam out of its domestic Muslim population too? If not, what on earth are you saying?
 
If not, what on earth are you saying?
I'm saying you shouldn't believe everything you hear if the sources repeatedly reduce to the same single origin - those with a vested interest in having you believe it.

Personally, I remember conversations with various North Americans and some Europeans who told me in explicit detail about the atrocities the Ghastly British were committing in 'Occupied Ireland'. Their source? I'll leave you to guess.

Why did they believe it? I'd guess partly ignorance but there seemed to be a fair degree of emotional investment, so I'd also suggest that it fitted comfortably with what they already 'knew' about the British Army. Similarly, if you trace each of these horror stories back to their source.

I've been studying China for 20-odd years now and I've noticed the same patterns again and again:

1) Luridly emotive claims e.g. 'Tibetan genocide' which don't survive even a cursory acquaintance with human fertility and Primary School arithmetic.

2) Heavy reliance on anonymous eye-witness reporting - or more typically third hand reporting of anonymous eye-witness reporting.

3) Denial of any physical evidence which contradicts the narrative; and failure to provide same which supports it because conspiracy.

4) Ignoring clear evidence of the PRC trying to shape culture rather than eliminate it e.g sponsoring Tibetan monasteries outside Tibet; funding mosques in Ningxia and Beijing; and legislating that only adults can be legally inducted into a religion instead of indoctrinated from childhood.

5) Overlooking repeated falsehoods by the originating sources e.g. Rebiyya Khadir's using footage of a riot in Suzhou (Jiangsu Province, at the opposite end of the country with close to 100% Han population) as evidence police brutality against Uighurs without being challenged by those reporting her claim.

So when I hear "I was beaten by police" parlayed into "They're wiping us out!" by the very people who want to be in charge, I think a similar degree of circumspection to that with which official government statements are treated is due.
 
Assuming it happens, this will be a bit of a litmus test, both for the TB and other nations' future relations with them.

'The Taliban will allow dozens of U.S. and other foreign citizens to leave Afghanistan on a flight to Qatar scheduled to take off from Kabul on Thursday, two sources familiar with the matter have told NBC News.

'Speaking on the condition of anonymity, the two officials confirmed the development first reported by Reuters, saying a flight was expected to land in Doha on Thursday.

'The planned departure comes amid growing fears for those who have been left behind in Afghanistan as the Taliban tightens its grip on the country in the wake of the United States' chaotic withdrawal.

'Taliban spokesperson Zabihullah Mujahid told NBC News that the militant group would not stand in the way of anyone looking to leave Afghanistan, so long as they have valid travel documents.'



E2A: And they're off.

'Qatari officials say a Qatar Airways flight has departed Kabul on Thursday afternoon with Americans on board. The flight landed earlier at Kabul airport with humanitarian aid.'

 
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How many did they kill? Because unless it's north of 130,000, the Chinese are still in poll position.
130,000 who? I'm betting 'Uighur', in which case my question "Who told you?" stands.

ARRSE is normally a font of healthy scepticism, which miraculously disappears at the merest hint of, 'China Bad!'
 
130,000 who? I'm betting 'Uighur', in which case my question "Who told you?" stands.

ARRSE is normally a font of healthy scepticism, which miraculously disappears at the merest hint of, 'China Bad!'

Interesting that even China's friend, Israel, makes the list.

June 22, 2021
We are gravely concerned about the human rights situation in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region. Credible reports indicate that over a million people have been arbitrarily detained in Xinjiang and that there is widespread surveillance disproportionately targeting Uyghurs and members of other minorities and restrictions on fundamental freedoms and Uyghur culture. There are also reports of torture or cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment or punishment, forced sterilization, sexual and gender-based violence, and forced separation of children from their parents by authorities.

We also share the concerns expressed by UN Special Procedures in their March 29 statement on alleged detention, forced labour and transfers of Uyghurs and members of other Muslim minorities and in a letter published by UN experts describing collective repression of religious and ethnic minorities.

We urge China to allow immediate, meaningful and unfettered access to Xinjiang for independent observers, including the High Commissioner, and to urgently implement the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination’s 8 recommendations related to Xinjiang, including by ending the arbitrary detention of Uyghurs and members of other Muslim minorities.

Finally, we continue to be deeply concerned about the deterioration of fundamental freedoms in Hong Kong under the National Security Law and about the human rights situation in Tibet. We call on Chinese authorities to abide by their human rights obligations.


Signatories

  1. Albania
  2. Australia
  3. Austria
  4. Belgium
  5. Belize
  6. Bosnia and Herzegovina
  7. Bulgaria
  8. Canada
  9. Croatia
  10. Czech Republic
  11. Denmark
  12. Estonia
  13. France
  14. Finland
  15. Germany
  16. Haiti
  17. Honduras
  18. Iceland
  19. Ireland
  20. Israel
  21. Italy
  22. Japan
  23. Latvia
  24. Liechtenstein
  25. Lithuania
  26. Luxembourg
  27. Marshall Islands
  28. Monaco
  29. Nauru
  30. Netherlands
  31. New Zealand
  32. Norway
  33. Palau
  34. Poland
  35. Portugal
  36. Romania
  37. San Marino
  38. Slovakia
  39. Slovenia
  40. Spain
  41. Sweden
  42. Switzerland
  43. United Kingdom
  44. United States
 
Interesting that even China's friend, Israel, makes the list.
A letter demanding access to investigate reports is somehow evidence of what those reports are about? Or did you have some point beyond the usual, "China! Blargh!"?
 
130,000 who? I'm betting 'Uighur', in which case my question "Who told you?" stands.

ARRSE is normally a font of healthy scepticism, which miraculously disappears at the merest hint of, 'China Bad!'

Must be something to do with the global pandemic that China caused. You know, the one that killed 130,000 British citizens and anally raped our economy without even giving it a reach-around. :rolleyes:
 
Must be something to do with the global pandemic that China caused. You know, the one that killed 130,000 British citizens and anally raped our economy without even giving it a reach-around. :rolleyes:
So that stops you giving a second glance to whatever anyone chooses to say?

On a scale of 1 to Chalabi, the evidence for what the WUC claim is hovering somewhere around 'Up the Clyde on a banana boat.'
 
So that stops you giving a second glance to whatever anyone chooses to say?

On a scale of 1 to Chalabi, the evidence for what the WUC claim is hovering somewhere around 'Up the Clyde on a banana boat.'

How do you know a representative of the PRC is lying? Their lips move.

When it comes to China, always treat the bastards as guilty until proven innocent and you can't go far wrong.
 
How do you know a representative of the PRC is lying? Their lips move
Again, how does that mean the representatives of the Uighurs are telling the truth?

You are aware that it's possible for two opposing statements to both be lies, aren't you?
 
No one has mentioned the elephant in the room - no not that one in the zoo - but their arch rivals IS.

I think the Taliban will utilses these bastards for their own ends but I sincerely hope they feck over the Taliban and drag them into an elingated war that depletes that country. The Afghan workforce is leaving, the Taliban have no way of funding their type of government and I think some of them will have got used to the high life in Qatar and find the harsh life of Afghan a lot more different.
Sorry for sounding bitter - but I worry that the Taliban will adopt the Russian way of life and will carry out atrocities - until caught and even then will deny it.

There is a distinct lack of cathedrals for Russian style implausible deniability
 
Well, while I have no love for the BBC, I'll still take their word over the CCP,
The BBC's words are 'alleged', 'impossible to verify' and 'reports suggest'. The other words are not the BBC's, so what is your basis for trusting them and do they fall into one of the patterns I've described above?

Incidentally, most of the current furore stems from that chap they've mentioned, Adrian Zenz - exactly the sort of single origin I mentioned above. For a "leading expert on China's policies in Xinjiang", he's spent remarkably little time on it - up until 2019, his focus was on Tibet, despite not speaking any Tibetan and never having been there. He doesn't speak any Uighur, either, and his sole trip to Xinjiang was once in 2007 as a guest of the provincial government.
 

SteveLancs

Old-Salt
Interesting that even China's friend, Israel, makes the list.

June 22, 2021
We are gravely concerned about the human rights situation in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region. Credible reports indicate that over a million people have been arbitrarily detained in Xinjiang and that there is widespread surveillance disproportionately targeting Uyghurs and members of other minorities and restrictions on fundamental freedoms and Uyghur culture. There are also reports of torture or cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment or punishment, forced sterilization, sexual and gender-based violence, and forced separation of children from their parents by authorities.

We also share the concerns expressed by UN Special Procedures in their March 29 statement on alleged detention, forced labour and transfers of Uyghurs and members of other Muslim minorities and in a letter published by UN experts describing collective repression of religious and ethnic minorities.

We urge China to allow immediate, meaningful and unfettered access to Xinjiang for independent observers, including the High Commissioner, and to urgently implement the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination’s 8 recommendations related to Xinjiang, including by ending the arbitrary detention of Uyghurs and members of other Muslim minorities.

Finally, we continue to be deeply concerned about the deterioration of fundamental freedoms in Hong Kong under the National Security Law and about the human rights situation in Tibet. We call on Chinese authorities to abide by their human rights obligations.


Signatories

  1. Albania
  2. Australia
  3. Austria
  4. Belgium
  5. Belize
  6. Bosnia and Herzegovina
  7. Bulgaria
  8. Canada
  9. Croatia
  10. Czech Republic
  11. Denmark
  12. Estonia
  13. France
  14. Finland
  15. Germany
  16. Haiti
  17. Honduras
  18. Iceland
  19. Ireland
  20. Israel
  21. Italy
  22. Japan
  23. Latvia
  24. Liechtenstein
  25. Lithuania
  26. Luxembourg
  27. Marshall Islands
  28. Monaco
  29. Nauru
  30. Netherlands
  31. New Zealand
  32. Norway
  33. Palau
  34. Poland
  35. Portugal
  36. Romania
  37. San Marino
  38. Slovakia
  39. Slovenia
  40. Spain
  41. Sweden
  42. Switzerland
  43. United Kingdom
  44. United States
Apart from Albania, none of these are Muslim countries and one would expect them to be on-board if there were any truth to the allegations. A bit of insight here.. “Wipe out China!” US-funded Uyghur activists train as gun-toting foot soldiers for empire - The Grayzone
 
Apart from Albania, none of these are Muslim countries and one would expect them to be on-board if there were any truth to the allegations.
Quite a few Muslim countries are not members of the UNHRC. Turkey, however, was one of the most vocal critics of the PRC's latest 'strike hard' campaign - right up to the point they signed an extradition treaty with the PRC allowing them to send wanted pax back to Xinjiang.

There are sort-of/not-quite analogies with the Palestinians - many local players are happy to use them as bargaining chips while simultaneously not giving a shit about them and finding their own Uighur residents a complete pain in the arse.
 

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