Advice on Statement.

Discussion in 'Military Discipline' started by BaldBleep, May 27, 2011.

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  1. Morning Gents,
    Hoping someone can profer any advice that may help. A verbal altercation took place at HO/TO time between my Sect Sgt, and my shift LCpl. The Sgt also doubles as the Trg Sgt for the Det. During Handover the Sgt says to Lcpl book your PFT (he passed it about 4 weeks ago) as your the only one available, Lcpl replies that he wont as Sgt is the Trg NCO (this gent has a habit of 'delegating' jobs which are his claiming he is snowed under) and it his job to organise the training programme and liase with the relevant assets. Sgt becomes aggresive (verbally) and sweary, lcpl reacts firmly but not aggresively or sweary in the same manner. this goes on for a minute pantomime style, oh yes you will, ooohhhh no I wont all in front of me (corporal and another lance jack and a pte, all MPGS by the way so its not like were new to this or impressionable). Two days later Sgt tells me to write a statement (which if I do it will, I promise be briefer than this) about this 'incident', and accuses me of failing to stop my LCpl being insubordinate, which by strict definition he was, if politely refusing to carry out an order. I take the view that as the senior rank there, he should have taken the LCpl out of ear shot of us, and not me (I did advise my LCpl to remain calm during this discussion). It may be clear to you I have no respect for the Sgt and agree with the Lcpl (if not in the way he went about it), and I realise my 'feelings' are irrelevant.


    Q1. Was my bloke insubordinate?

    Q2. How can I best represent my LCpls interests? He is a good egg but after 3 years of this pushy so n so 'delegating' duties which are clearly his, I think he bit.

    Thanks in advance and apologies for the long winded explanation.
     
  2. Sgt tells Lcpl to do something.
    Lcpl refuses and chops off to SNCO

    You as the LCpls direct senior sit there and do nothing except say "Calm down".

    Must be fun working where you are.
     
  3. From what you've said, it sounds like there's been a bit of a breakdown in discipline all round.

    Playing devil's advocate for a moment, you should have gripped your LCPL and told him to wind his neck in - and then you should have talked to the sergeant one-on-one to address the concerns you all have. In fact, you should have done that a while ago from the sounds of things.

    Secondly, you can't be ordered to write a witness statement if you don't want to. If he tries to force you to, go over his head. If you do write the statement, make sure you include all the background leading up to the incident - that's the best way to serve your LCPL's interests.

    Thirdly, and apologies if you don't like this bit - man up! Take your sergeant to one side and explain the issues you all have. If he won't listen, go a step higher up the chain.
     
  4. Thankyou for the Replies Gents. You should ask my seniors if i fail to address any issues me or my shift have with them, I never do. Unfortunately this SNCO is a one command style dictatorial little Hitler with a proven track record of bullying, assault in the Mess, and zero integrity. Even our Gurkha lads complain and thats saying something. Still confused as to why the Sergeant would expect me to step in when he is the Senior rank and should have taken it outside.
     
  5. Incidentally, The LCpl is an ex C/Sgt in the Angle Irons. So not a young feisty pup.
     
  6. Refuse to make a statement? I would suggest not a smart move, unless he wants to get the backs up of his chain of command. He can always be called to give evidence in person as it's clear he witnessed the incident-at least in a statement he has the opportunity to give a reasoned and considered response.

    As for the deeper issues, take it up with the chain of command. Putting it bluntly, the LCpl was insurbordinate. As for the Sgt taking it to one side-he has no obligation to do this and may have felt that a little public humiliation was necessary to put a chopsy junior back in his box
     
  7. Insubordinate? not necessarily. Your oppo's best chance of demonstrating that he was not being insubordinate is for you to make a full statement in the way ZO indicates (in fact, I agree with virtually everythin ZO said). My first instinct is that you should have stepped in, either to back up your Sgt, or to remove the L/Cpl and then address the matter one on one with your Sgt. To do neither is an abrogation of responsibility.
     
  8. Write the report, but make sure you are completely truthful about the events and don't try to embelish the incident. If the events occured as you describe and the Sgt has an ego and any nouse about him, he will realise that his actions make him look foolish and weak to his superiors. Which may deter him from taking it further this time. But as was said earlier, you should have had a word to your L/cpl about his behaviour toward the Sgt, irrespective of both your opinions of the Snco. If this related to a training issue, and you all work in the training office, then he can't refuse to carry out an order given by his stripey, it's bad for both morale and discipline.

    A quick jab was the old remedy to such events, and no hard feelings after. But that is no longer acceptable in the new modern touchy feely Army....Sadly.
     
  9. See this is what I love about the MPGS, seniors suddenly becoming juniors and vice-versa.
    Friction is inevitable I think, but if this Sgt has been such a pain in the ringpeice for so long, why has nobody bothered to address the issue before?

    I also think you should write the statement, without bias, as I think his attitude should be addressed separately.
     
  10. Agree totally and Ive seen something similar around other units, especially when the JNCO MPGS was a SNCO in the regs and the SNCO MPGS never maid it past CPL whilst serving. Agree take no bias view and say it as you saw it........only problem is you now are piggy in the middle and things should of been sorted earlier..........maybe a bit of milling round the back and back home for tea and crumpets and a beer was in order.
     
  11. **** Lads I would like nothing better than to put on the gloves! And I can see both views on whether I should have stepped in to rein the LCpl back in, on this occasion I probably let my sympathy for the LCpls position and intestinal loathing for this individual interfere with my responsibilitys. Ill take that on the chin like a Thai bird on 10 mark alley. The fact that the Sgt became instantly aggressive and verbally abusive turned what could be termed a robust conversation into a slanging match. I have and frequently do address my Sgt with concerns and have gone round him and over him when required to curb, lets say his 'personality deficiencys'. I have had some success here. But the bloke is like Teflon, even after assualting when drunk one of the Permanant staff here, he got a 3 month ban from the mess, all kept internal! Despite the victim trying to persue a harsher line. Everytime he deems he has gotaway with yet another misdemeanour his ego grows ever so slightly and his behaviour becomes correspondingly dictatorial. been to see the WO on several occasions and have been given alternatively the pat on the head routine, or the big FO. I could go on to describe the 3 bullying cases against him but I think you get the drift. I am writing an honest statement about the 'incident' and can only hope the new WO is a bollock and go merchant.

    Thanks again for your Input Gents.