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aches and pains in feet

#1
within the last 2 months i've started runnin and trying to get myself together for my selection, i've done it all before but thought i would prepare myself.

I am pysically fit and visit the gym six days a week and run between 3 - 5km.

the last week ive been gettin problems with my feet, pains in my heels, both sides, suspect my trainers are the problem, (lack of support ??), i've got some new trainers within the last two days, when i wake up its at its worst, even walkin down the stairs.

are these aches and pains normall as i've only been at the gym for the last two months, anyone got an ideas of how i could improve things?

thanks
(not so) speedy
 
#3
J_E_P said:
You land with heel first when you run?
out of the gym i wouldn't of though so, although i have been running on a running machine on an incline at the gym, i could of been landing on my heels on there...
 
#4
I'm no expert, i just find it somewhat odd that your heels are taking the punishment.

It's been said a few times here anyway, if you goto a real running store they will accurately analyse your running gait. You could always bring up your issues at the same time with someone whos probably seen it all.

As for technique, under "Exercises" on www.crossfit.com (sorry to spout it agian people) they have a fair few videos on correct running form. Correct being sometimes harder than your natural run......but correct equalling no damage :D.
 
#6
i've just got back from my local running shop, they had a treadmill with a camera connected to a laptop to review footage of me and my silver shaddows!

suspect i need a good pair of trainers will support, i usually go to the gym on the evening about 8pm, i didn't know if that was why pain was worse in the morining, lets hope its not plantar fasciitis

thanks for your replys
 
#8
What hurts? Is it the skin, the flesh under the skin or the bone?

speedybham said:
J_E_P said:
You land with heel first when you run?
out of the gym i wouldn't of though so, although i have been running on a running machine on an incline at the gym, i could of been landing on my heels on there...
My bold - Unlikely your heel striking if you're running on an incline...

J_E_P said:
As for technique, under "Exercises" on www.crossfit.com (sorry to spout it agian people) they have a fair few videos on correct running form. Correct being sometimes harder than your natural run......but correct equalling no damage :D.
Yup, good advice. In the long term it is a more efficient way of running and requires less energy, gives better speed and less injury.. very unnatural to start with though and does require good levels of flexiblity.
 
#9
Shortty said:
What hurts? Is it the skin, the flesh under the skin or the bone?
i've found a pic, just under this guys thumb is where it hurts, was my night off gym last night and this mornin it felt alot better, might just miss out the treadmill until it's sorted there's plenty more to do other than that



dont wana risk any injury, been lookin at crossfit and will try and take it all in. Just dont wana end up getin injured and missin out on next year wanted to do the 10 Mile 'P' Company Cross Country Route in sept next year within 1hr 50min with proceeds go to 'The Airborne Forces Charity' & 'Help for Heroes Campaign'.
 
#10
you probably pronate your feet when you running, causing strain on your deltoid ligament. Properly fitted trainers will probably help. Plantar fascitis is usually pinpoint pain under the heel and along the arch
 
#11
bigbird67 said:
you probably pronate your feet when you running, causing strain on your deltoid ligament. Properly fitted trainers will probably help. Plantar fascitis is usually pinpoint pain under the heel and along the arch
hope ur right, ive got a pair of nike triax trainers on way, they seemed to have nice support, the hitec shaddows will be destroyed...
 
#12
bigbird67 said:
you probably pronate your feet when you running, causing strain on your deltoid ligament. Properly fitted trainers will probably help. Plantar fascitis is usually pinpoint pain under the heel and along the arch
mmmm i'd have gone with posterior tibial ligament personally..

May have been caused by the treadmill, from running on the balls of your feet more, or it may be something else entirely.

Either way, the treatment for most of these types of conditions is the same, ensure your ankles are flexible and strong (see link http://www.sportspodiatry.co.uk/ankle_PTTD.htm).

Also ensure your hip flexibility is good and that your running style is also good. Someone mentioned this site (http://www.crossfit.com/) in another thread and looking at it, it has some great resources on it so i'm going to shamelessly rip off their advice and link! Look at the running videos under "exercises and demos". Also worth looking into mid/forefoot striking in general - googling for "barefoot running" and "pose running" will give some good resources.
 
#13
J_E_P said:
As for technique, under "Exercises" on www.crossfit.com (sorry to spout it agian people) they have a fair few videos on correct running form. Correct being sometimes harder than your natural run......but correct equalling no damage :D.
I'm not sure whether to thank you or curse you for introducing me to that site! Been following the system for about 3 - 4 days now and i'm in bits!

Are you following it or do you just use it as a resource?

Shortty
 
#14
Both really, when i was at uni i followed the "Workout of the Day" (WOD) every single day, admittedly thanks to an Arab mate who liked to kick my door in at 9am each morning, these days i generally get 3 in per week.

As for there Exercises/Info database i use it on a regular basis. Its stuff like Clean and Jerk that always gets me, in England were so under funded with respect to sports facilities that we don't go about learning the functional exercises. Thus the learning utilities on crossfit.com have made me a better and more educated man :D.

It's also at various points.......made my shins bleed, made my hands bleeds, make me puke from intensity, collapse in a heap and scream to whatever gods that are listening that life is unfair haha.
 
#15
OK Listen that cross fit running technique using the ball of foot strike is complete shite...I am a qualified Phys Trainer and have been running since the age of 14 now 31. I constantly track progression of all things running and this this "technique" is pathetic. Its unconventional,energy expendant and puts all the force of the strike onto the smaller more fragile bones in the foot. The natarul method of running is by far the most effecient...and this involves the heel strike but it is important to maintain a neutral strike i.e. not rotating your foot to either side as your heel hits the deck, roll onto the ball of your foot and push off with your toes..and your knees acting like a suspension to reduce impact up the body..any PTI worth his/her salt will back this up. If your having problems with your feet there could be a number of sources,ill fitting shoes or shoes not fastenend correctly i.e. homie style, rotating your feet as i mentioned,knee or hip mis-alignment or possibly spinal problems...see a professional trainer/visit a good running club and ask and do not adopt this wanky american chicken dance....oh and get off the treadmill and onto tracks and trails
Running issues....DONE
 
#16
down_wind said:
OK Listen that cross fit running technique using the ball of foot strike is complete shite...I am a qualified Phys Trainer and have been running since the age of 14 now 31. I constantly track progression of all things running and this this "technique" is pathetic. Its unconventional,energy expendant and puts all the force of the strike onto the smaller more fragile bones in the foot. The natarul method of running is by far the most effecient...and this involves the heel strike but it is important to maintain a neutral strike i.e. not rotating your foot to either side as your heel hits the deck, roll onto the ball of your foot and push off with your toes..and your knees acting like a suspension to reduce impact up the body..any PTI worth his/her salt will back this up. If your having problems with your feet there could be a number of sources,ill fitting shoes or shoes not fastenend correctly i.e. homie style, rotating your feet as i mentioned,knee or hip mis-alignment or possibly spinal problems...see a professional trainer/visit a good running club and ask and do not adopt this wanky american chicken dance....oh and get off the treadmill and onto tracks and trails
Running issues....DONE
So you're pretty open to new ideas then?

Ok, this "new chicken dance" you're talking about, is quite well known. Details vary but the main theory is the same in POSE technique, Chi running and the Pirie theory. If you watch any elite marathon runner you will see them using the same, if not extremely similar technique. Same goes for sprinters and middle distance runners. A perfect example is Paula Radcliffe - i have seen her run in person as live quite close to her, and her running technique is definately not! heel striking..

Some people can run heel striking, and find it better - fair play and crack on. However the 60+% of runners who get injured every year, mostly with lower limb injuries, would suggest this isn't the case. The injury rate for fore-foot landing is significantly lower.

I know you're not going to believe me, and that's your choice, but if your going to be so polar about your opinion make sure it is based on some good research. i.e.

Studeis have found:

The more cushioning a trainer offers the higher the injury rate.
The more cushioning a trainer offers, the harder the foor strikes the ground and the higher the forces are on the knee.
Barefoot running generated 50% less impact in the knee joint.

Pure logical thought should make you think, how did we as a species run before the invention of Asics, Nike etc. Barefoot running and heel striking leads to fractures within miles - i trust evolution more than i do nikes PR campaign. And yes we are meant to run as a species - don't believe me then google nuchal ligament and running and see what it brings back.


I'm not going to say i'm right and you're wrong, i'm saying, if someone is injured, why push him away from a legit and verified technique. Surely any PTI worth their salt wants their trainies to be fit and injury free, regardless of what new ideas that may involve.

(coincidentally, reading Gordon Piries work should show that it isn't a new idea - the new idea is cushioning in the heel, and since it has been introduced injuries from running have sky-rocketed.) Again if you don't believe me, then Piries book is available for download on the net for free. You could also try watching Chariots of Fire, you will hear them talking about exactly the same technique in that, and they are running around in flat hard soles.


FWIW i will agree with you that most runners don't have the necessary flexibility, core strength etc to give themselves a fighting chance. I think, from the research I have done after being injured, that forefoot running has scientific and anectodotal support, and whilst the changeover is painfull, very few people go back to heel striking, whilst most seriously reduce their running times, and injury incidence. Having recently started the change myself, I can feel it is a lot more efficient and feels a lot lighter and more natural.

Discuss . . .
 
#17
A well thought out argument there Shorty some aspects of which I agree and some I dont, yes the POSE technique is a recognized tried and tested method of movement and has been proven to work for many marathon runners and track athletes (sprinters not included as they use a slightly different technique involving explosive power,alternate posture and upper body mobility). The POSE method and the aforementioned "wanky chicken dance" might work great on a nice 20mile stretch of tarmac or shiny asphalt, but over fields, woodland through rivers up and down hills etc,like you do in the Army its pure crap and this I take it this is what the lad is training for.

When it comes to injuries once again I agree in part to your statement that adopting the POSE technique,does decrease certain injuries around the knees,calves and ankles. The injury stats for the runners who use heel strike to power them around will obviously be far higher because there are so many more runners using this style. And to be honest some of examples I seen should perhaps go back a step or two and learn to walk properly again before attempting to run at any speed or distance. This is half the problem, a lot people go out and hit the streets without really thinking about their foot fall because they are too busy blowing out their arse to take it into account. As for the use all the fancy Air Max my credit card out please..I agree mate a good basic running shoe which gives support to your natural foot shape i.e. heel and mid arch are all you need, Sauchony and Teva do some great stuff, but as for the flat daps you mention in Chariots of Fire come on mate 2009.

Heel strike for those who are doing this does not mean smashing your heels into the road at every stride, its more a case of simply catching the stride and rolling forward, think about catching a cricket ball, you wouldnt just extend your arm palm up and let the ball smash into your mits you move with the force of ball in a controlled manner.

This is why I suggested to go and visit a running club and seek advice its all well and good reading up on stuff,but you need the physical presence of an instructor to monitor and advise,especially in the early days.

Im not here to argue which is best,each to their own,I just want to present some real functional advice to a young spud.........so listen to me :wink:
 
#18
Speedybahm if you want to PM me I can offer some further more in depth advice and some remedial exercises that should help alleviate the pain and strengthen the muscles and tendons around the foot and ankle but go get checked by your GP because it may not simply be running related. Hope this helps.
 
#19
Ok, without wanting to get into an argument, just posting in bold my replies to your post.

down_wind said:
A well thought out argument there Shorty some aspects of which I agree and some I dont, yes the POSE technique is a recognized tried and tested method of movement and has been proven to work for many marathon runners and track athletes (sprinters not included as they use a slightly different technique involving explosive power,alternate posture and upper body mobility). Only for the first 20metres or so, after that they stop accelerating and are simply running at a fast pace

The POSE method and the aforementioned "wanky chicken dance" might work great on a nice 20mile stretch of tarmac or shiny asphalt, but over fields, woodland through rivers up and down hills etc,like you do in the Army its pure crap and this I take it this is what the lad is training for. admittedly it is hard to run pose or forefoot in boots, but in trainers it is no different. In fact if you are leaping and bounding, as you will do on rough terrain, there is even more need for the extra spring your calf muscles provides

When it comes to injuries once again I agree in part to your statement that adopting the POSE technique,does decrease certain injuries around the knees,calves and ankles. The injury stats for the runners who use heel strike to power them around will obviously be far higher because there are so many more runners using this style. And to be honest some of examples I seen should perhaps go back a step or two and learn to walk properly again before attempting to run at any speed or distance. This is half the problem, a lot people go out and hit the streets without really thinking about their foot fall because they are too busy blowing out their arse to take it into account. very true, and running forefoot requires a high level of fitness, whilst shockingly unfit people do seem to just judder from one foot to the next, barely staying upright! The injury stats are done as percentages. The studies are real, and do show more damage to the joints being done when more cushioning is available.

However, you say most people run heel to toe. I would say where i live, most people run toe-heel-toe and it is the minority that run heel toe - but that is because of where i live. I live in *****, and went to uni there, and due to high level of sports excellence (etc etc) the running style is probably different to your average population. This brings me on to my next point - the Olympic teams, (not just running) and any semi-elite athletics team get coaching on how to run - and the current style that is being taught, is forefoot landing.


As for the use all the fancy Air Max my credit card out please..I agree mate a good basic running shoe which gives support to your natural foot shape i.e. heel and mid arch are all you need, Sauchony and Teva do some great stuff, but as for the flat daps you mention in Chariots of Fire come on mate 2009. yeah, but our bodies aren't cars, so technological advances will only help in certain areas, and changing the way we run is going against millions of years of evolution, in 30 years. Get someone to go barefoot running, or even better watch a young child running (not from the woods wearing a dirty mac tho!), and you will see both will prefer to land on the forefoot.

Heel strike for those who are doing this does not mean smashing your heels into the road at every stride, its more a case of simply catching the stride and rolling forward, think about catching a cricket ball, you wouldnt just extend your arm palm up and let the ball smash into your mits you move with the force of ball in a controlled manner. i agree and i think once you are looking at rolling with the stride, then you aren't really landing on your heal, but more your mid-foot. Now take into account the thickness of the cushioning at the heel, compared to at the mid and front areas... if that cushioning wasn't so thick, might it be your ball/front mid foot that was landing first. Bear in mind forefoot running doesn't mean your heel doesn't touch the ground, just that it only touches lightly, after the forefoot has landed under the centre of gravity.

This is why I suggested to go and visit a running club and seek advice its all well and good reading up on stuff,but you need the physical presence of an instructor to monitor and advise,especially in the early days. agree with this, i think we do need to learn to run, it isn't as natural as we might think because we've spent too many years in front of a tv/xbox

Im not here to argue which is best,each to their own,I just want to present some real functional advice to a young spud.........so listen to me :wink: me? young? i wish! , no i appreciate your comments and that you can make your point in a balanced manner. I'm sure you are happy with your style of running and am not trying to convert you, merely to show anyone else reading what my thoughts are
Final point - IMHO POSE is overly technical, and it's not really a style in it's own right, it's a teaching method to get people running a certain way, but take it out the minutiae and the principles are simply, land on the forefoot first, have a relaxed calf muscle when you land, land under your centre of gravity, take more quick steps than slow long strides, don't drive too hard from each leg.
 
#20
I like your argument but I have to say I stand by what Ive said, years of injury free and successful training cant be wrong. Perhaps you may say Im lucky but I like to think its because I listen to my body and was fortunate enough to have a good running coach in my school X-Country days.

I understand the science behind your case buts its based it around track athletes which is a lot different to your average X-Country run, and "nobody" runs barefoot in the army. In my opinion you should run as would naturally but just refine it rather than try to adopt completely controlled body mechanics. Save that for the Bergan Tabs.

The "young" was reference to Speedybahm, but I guess you must be re_a_lly old to find some kind of offence in that simple sentence, lighten up mate, and you never know your running might improve.

To argue the pros and cons of this or that could consume years of debate, and has done so, listen to your body,understand the movements within it,apply common sense,build gradually and for gods sake try and enjoy it. :wink:
 
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