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ACF Walts and wanabe WALTS.

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#1
As a former cadet and then a regular soldier. I decided to join the ACF as an instructor.

Is it just my county or does every county have the same problem with walts. As it seems quite a high number claim to have been in yet can never remember their Army number. And they all hate ex regs.

Ive also found that promotion (not that its a real rank) is down to nepotism and not how good you are. Saying that there are a lot of funny handshakes in my county.

My main problem is civvys that join the ACF as instructors genuinely believe they have EARNED their rank? and 21 days worth of courses and you are qualified to major? We have even had a few who have had their rank on their credit cards. Ive even had one tell me how he earned his Jubilee medal.

The cadet officers who get a TA Cadet commission actually believe they are real officers? Seriously they do a 10 day ITC and a 2 day selectoin course and they think they are the real deal. We even had one who got a cadet commission and then tryed joining the TA and tryed to transfer his commission?

Now is this all in my head or is it a genuine problem in the ACF. Personally my rank in the ACF doesnt bother me as it has no impact on my army pension.

Overall I think the ACF does a fantastic job as it helped me when I was younger. But these wanabes who couldnt get in the regs or TA for what ever reason ruin it. They are in it for their own self gratification.

So how can we rid the ACF of these idiots? and make it the organisation it should be!!!
 
#2
I have no experience of the ACF etc. Therefore this reply is a gut reaction rather than a reasoned opinion.

The people who would be best for the cadets to learn from are unlikely to be interested as a whole. They have done their time as a regular soldier and are moving on. Some do remain committed to providing the youth of today with a genuine option for extra curricula activities, which can be beneficial to them and their community in both the short and long term, but they are few and far between.

Alas, caring for kids takes a lot of time and effort these days. The time commitment is likely to be a block to many potentially very good instructors. Families have put up with all sorts of trips, tours, courses etc. that have removed the individual from them. They are unlikely to be fully supportive of another reason for being away a lot when it is not a necessity !

This means that there is gap to be filled. Many of those who step into the gap will be genuine, motivated individuals who are keen to provide the opportunities to the children that I mentioned above. However, it is the easiest way of getting to wear an army uniform. I know, as a STAB, that while the support for HM Forces is high at present, understanding of the most basic aspects of the work/life of soldiers is not understood.

Such ignorance is a breeding ground for stories and story tellers. Get the uniform and let people know you are an officer in the ARMY Cadet Force. My emphasis but I believe it holds true. Nepotism/handshakes etc. are the result.

I should love to see it change but the change it needs would result in a different ACF that would need to be assessed and altered to make it "correct" according to the government !

For what it is worth you have my whole hearted support.
 
#3
Overall I think the ACF does a fantastic job as it helped me when I was younger. But these wanabes who couldnt get in the regs or TA for what ever reason ruin it. They are in it for their own self gratification.

So how can we rid the ACF of these idiots? and make it the organisation it should be!!!
You need to get over yourself and pull your head out of your arse, because...
Overall I think the ACF does a fantastic job as it helped me when I was younger.
...and...
how can we rid the ACF of these idiots? and make it the organisation it should be!!!
are mutually exclusive statements.

Make your ******* mind up.

I'd admit that some staff come over as utter *******, but a few people I had written off as pompous uniform collectors, eventually came up with the minerals when required and did a ******* good job. Some ACF people get a bit carried away and can rub people up the wrong way unintentionally. But few,if any, are net detractors from what collectively the ACF wants to achieve. But there are a few we could do without if only to improve the outward appearance and tone of the org if nothing else, and as a bonus, possibly improve morale. But you could say this about any large national heirarchical organisation that inadequates, bullies and incompetents can hide in, the Armed Forces included.

The ACF and the army have done a lot to improve the calibre of its staff over the last 10 years, and more is on the way. But you can't sell this job to anyone unless they have grown up with it and seem what it means to the kids. Some counties have so few volunteers that appointment criteria are a pulse and an acceptable CRB clearance. Anything more is a bonus.

Mate, I don't know you, but with your opening post, you sound like a bitter Westbury reject. Is that the case?
 
#4
As a former cadet and then a regular soldier. I decided to join the ACF as an instructor.

Is it just my county or does every county have the same problem with walts. As it seems quite a high number claim to have been in yet can never remember their Army number. And they all hate ex regs.

Ive also found that promotion (not that its a real rank) is down to nepotism and not how good you are. Saying that there are a lot of funny handshakes in my county.

My main problem is civvys that join the ACF as instructors genuinely believe they have EARNED their rank? and 21 days worth of courses and you are qualified to major? We have even had a few who have had their rank on their credit cards. Ive even had one tell me how he earned his Jubilee medal.

The cadet officers who get a TA Cadet commission actually believe they are real officers? Seriously they do a 10 day ITC and a 2 day selectoin course and they think they are the real deal. We even had one who got a cadet commission and then tryed joining the TA and tryed to transfer his commission?

Now is this all in my head or is it a genuine problem in the ACF. Personally my rank in the ACF doesnt bother me as it has no impact on my army pension.

Overall I think the ACF does a fantastic job as it helped me when I was younger. But these wanabes who couldnt get in the regs or TA for what ever reason ruin it. They are in it for their own self gratification.

So how can we rid the ACF of these idiots? and make it the organisation it should be!!!
How about rescinding the commissions and replacing with a contract of employment as a part time MoD civil servant at the equivalent grade?

Replace uniform for adults with mufti for drill nights and suitable overalls for field work.

The genuine peopke would probably not gve a toss about the status change and the nutters that you describe would leave in droves.

In addition, you would probably find a lot of good people would want to join as the pompous half wits that you describe probably deter mant right minded people from becoming involved.
 

Mav

Old-Salt
#5
I'm in process of becoming an instructor with the CCF - to be honest, I'd be okay with not having a rank. I certainly don't intend telling anyone outside of the cadets that I'm a 2nd lieutenant - it makes a mockery of those who have earned their rank. We have 3 serving regs who regular come to help. Are they really supposed to salute me??

I got involved because being in the cadets as a kid gave me a huge amount, and I'd like to see other kids get the same out as I did. I also generally like the idea of trying to help instill leadership, respect, discipline and, most importantly, a sense of adventure, that you can have a go at anything. I also hope that it will be a bit of fun.

You can be sure, no matter what rank I have, it won't ever be on my credit cards!

So in answer to your question about how to change it - I say keep doing what you're doing and encourage others to do the same.
 
#6
Replace uniform for adults with mufti for drill nights and suitable overalls for field work.

The genuine peopke would probably not gve a toss about the status change and the nutters that you describe would leave in droves.

In addition, you would probably find a lot of good people would want to join as the pompous half wits that you describe probably deter mant right minded people from becoming involved.

So ACF adults only join for the uniform? Bollocks.

The ACF std dress now is CS95 for all ranks. 1s, 2s and SD is not to be worn unless there are extenuating reasons like bands personnel or representing the ACF nationally at an event.

AFAIK, Not one member of staff left the ACF after this order was promulgated.

CS95 is ******* PPE. If I put on a yellow jacket with a reflective panel and steel toe cap boots, does that make me a binman walt now?
 
#7
I reckon if the rank and uniform was taken away from these ACF Orficers, then there were be few left, I have no doubt it is the uniform and dare I say it 'rank' that attract them, and ah hem, maybe some are attracted for other reasons, if you know what I mean. You know like some Scout Masters.:spiderman:
 

Mav

Old-Salt
#8
So ACF adults only join for the uniform? Bollocks.

The ACF std dress now is CS95 for all ranks. 1s, 2s and SD is not to be worn unless there are extenuating reasons like bands personnel or representing the ACF nationally at an event.

AFAIK, Not one member of staff left the ACF after this order was promulgated.

CS95 is ******* PPE. If I put on a yellow jacket with a reflective panel and steel toe cap boots, does that make me a binman walt now?
binman walt - :biggrin:
 
#9
We have 3 serving regs who regular come to help. Are they really supposed to salute me??
Yes they are.

You salute the Queen's commission, end of.

My question is whether a part time public service grade might be more suitable for this appointment rather than a military rank. I suspect that the current policy of issuing comissions may be hindering rather than promoting the ACF's mission.
 
#10
Yes they are.

You salute the Queen's commission, end of.

My question is whether a part time public service grade might be more suitable for this appointment rather than a military rank. I suspect that the current policy of issuing comissions may be hindering rather than promoting the ACF's mission.
I understand the rules... it was more a reference to the fact that these guys have 5 or 10 years o experience, have been in combat... and I got my rank with some weetabix tokens. I'm being a little extreme, but I you get my point.
 
#11
So ACF adults only join for the uniform? Bollocks.

The ACF std dress now is CS95 for all ranks. 1s, 2s and SD is not to be worn unless there are extenuating reasons like bands personnel or representing the ACF nationally at an event.

AFAIK, Not one member of staff left the ACF after this order was promulgated.

CS95 is ******* PPE. If I put on a yellow jacket with a reflective panel and steel toe cap boots, does that make me a binman walt now?
Purpose of my contribution was not to give offence merely to provoke debate.

I am confident that you are involved in order to gain the intrinsic reward of helping kids out and because you enjoy it and find it rewarding and as such, are performing a valuable service.

However, if your warrant/commission were replaced by a gazetted civil service appointment would it really bother you?

However, my comments are directed at the pantomime wedding nutters and loons who put their "rank" on credit cards as described by the OP.

Please do not take my comments as negating the valuable service that you undertake.
 
#12
I understand the rules... it was more a reference to the fact that these guys have 5 or 10 years o experience, have been in combat... and I got my rank with some weetabix tokens. I'm being a little extreme, but I you get my point.
You salute the commission not the man.

Its the system of delegation of authority from the crown that prevents any armed force from turning into a street gang.
 
#13
...are mutually exclusive statements.

Make your ******* mind up.
Yes. Except for the fact that one is a statement and one is a question. Oh, and the fact that they're not mutually exclusive.

I agree with ADSOL here. I was a CCF cadet, and it was just about the only thing I looked forward to at school. It was what lead me to sign up. It was also run by preening teachers who had done a quick course and then stuck stripes/pips on their kit. That's not a pop at the commissioned/non commissioned officers of the ACF/CCF today, it has probably moved on apace, it's just the way it was then. However, it really does need the right people to run it. Not necessarily ex-Regs, just the right people.
 
#14
I reckon if the rank and uniform was taken away from these ACF Orficers, then there were be few left, I have no doubt it is the uniform and dare I say it 'rank' that attract them, and ah hem, maybe some are attracted for other reasons, if you know what I mean. You know like some Scout Masters.:spiderman:
So why is virtually every county short of Officers, and Commandants have to go on regular arm twisting forays to the Sgts & WOs mess so that he might have someone to talk to in the Officers mess? It's not Officers who are in it for the wrong reasons that is a problem for the ACF, it's the lack of Officers FULL STOP.

How about rescinding the commissions and replacing with a contract of employment as a part time MoD civil servant at the equivalent grade?
Wouldn't solve any of the current problems and would simply create different ones. Rescinding commissions requires Royal Assent. Probably not going to happen. The Commission is the Army's/MOD's leverage/access/control over the ACF in terms of training standards, discipline, and access to Army/MOD assets, land and equipment. ACF Officers are subject to military law.

Re-mustering the ACF Officers (and why not the NCOs too) would mean changing their status from 'casual employees of the secretary of state for defence' to MOD employees, entitled to so much more and that would have a knock-on administrative and finacial effect. CFAVs are not really paid for their time, but they have been allowed to claim a maximum of 28* days pay from a CFAV scale, (not reg or TA rates) to defray the costs and expenses associated with being a CFAV.

So at the moment we allowed a scoop out of the pot due to the MOD's largesse. Changing us to the position you suggest would mean we would be entitled to it. And the MOD does not want to go down the road of entitlement in these difficult financial times

*My county only allows 19 days a year now, and another 9 only if you are upskilling on courses or doing mandatory training tests like Red book, PIT, WHT etc;
 
#15
So why is virtually every county short of Officers, and Commandants have to go on regular arm twisting forays to the Sgts & WOs mess so that he might have someone to talk to in the Officers mess? It's not Officers who are in it for the wrong reasons that is a problem for the ACF, it's the lack of Officers FULL STOP.

Wouldn't solve any of the current problems and would simply create different ones. Rescinding commissions requires Royal Assent. Probably not going to happen. The Commission is the Army's/MOD's leverage/access/control over the ACF in terms of training standards, discipline, and access to Army/MOD assets, land and equipment. ACF Officers are subject to military law.

Re-mustering the ACF Officers (and why not the NCOs too) would mean changing their status from 'casual employees of the secretary of state for defence' to MOD employees, entitled to so much more and that would have a knock-on administrative and finacial effect. CFAVs are not really paid for their time, but they have been allowed to claim a maximum of 28* days pay from a CFAV scale, (not reg or TA rates) to defray the costs and expenses associated with being a CFAV.

So at the moment we allowed a scoop out of the pot due to the MOD's largesse. Changing us to the position you suggest would mean we would be entitled to it. And the MOD does not want to go down the road of entitlement in these difficult financial times

*My county only allows 19 days a year now, and another 9 only if you are upskilling on courses or doing mandatory training tests like Red book, PIT, WHT etc;
What would you suggest then to get the throbbers out as i would suggest that the loonies described are probably a significant cause of the overall shortage of officers?

How many potential good volunteers are deterred if their first point of contact with the organisation is a fruit loop?
 
#16
I'm ex CTT, and indeed I met my other half whilst there. I had always been a big supporter of the Cadet movement up until seeing her experiences of it.

I have never met a bigger bunch of strokers in my life. Back stabbing was rife, with many staff doing anything they could to climb the next rung. Spreading rumours about any female, and ignoring their input was standard.

As for walting, I have never laughed so hard than at some of the losers with their totally unjustifiable badges, tall stories and SAS t-shirts.

Full of utter idiots, with the genuine decent instructors who were there to help kids struggling to keep their motivation.

However, some of the Army personnel attached to the CTT were no better, seeing it as an opportunity to big themselves up or nigh on sexually assault impressionable female instructors. It would take me a lot of convincing to ever help again.
 
#19
I joined the ACF after 25 years service in the Army. I too was a cadet prior to joining the Army as a JLdr at 16 year of age.

I wanted to join the ACF as a CFAV to pass on my experiences and to help instil values, discipline, team work, leadership ect to the younger generation (stuff they don’t get at school) and to do my bit for the local community.

I was not interested in rank when I joined the ACF and initially wanted to be just a Civilian Instructor (CI), but the ACF does not have CI’s. As I was a WO1 when I retired from the Army, I was allowed to join as a SMI (wearing the badge of WO2 but not holding a warrant).

Since joining, I treat my cadets with respect, I lead by example produce an interesting and variable training programme at the same time try to instil the ACF motto, ‘to Inspire to Achieve’. My detachment has gone from 3 regularly attending cadets to 15 in just over a year.
However, in my short time in the cadets I have met some good & bad CFAV / Officers. Bad CFAV ‘s have either never served in the regular Armed Forces and think that it’s all about screaming and shouting or the ex reg who did 3-4 years service who think they know it all and treat cadets like raw recruits. The better ex reg is one who joins after a 22 year career or one who joins in their mid 30’s plus. On the officer front, I dislike the officers that treat the cadet force like regular service and want to be the next Comdt, Coy Commander, Coy 2IC, TO ect, this I see as those that want to feather their own nests and gain a status. But there are some really good officers that want the cadets to do well and are not in it for the status.

Also those officers that do not do the job for the post they hold. I have an officer (Maj) who holds a County appt and does not respond to my any emails with cadet passes in a particular APC subject or produce/sanction certs. To that end, I now cc the Comdt in on all my email to get the ball rolling and to enable the cadet to get the certificate they have earned, in a timely manner (otherwise they see lose interest). But I do ask the question why this individual wants to be in the ACF if he cannot be bother.
I am not interested in any promotion as I see this taking me away from the training & mentoring of the cadets.

One of the most satisfying element of being part of the ACF is when parents pass on their thanks to you when they notice that their son/daughter is now more confident and is doing better at school ect.

I would fully recommend the ACF to any ex service personnel, but remember, they are cadets and not in the regular Army.
 
#20
Being an ex reg does not necessarily equate to being a good ACF instructor. Some of the best ACF instructors i,ve seen have never worn green kit before. I,ve also seen ex regs in the organisation who are in it in order to fill the yawning chasm that opened up in their lives the day they left the mob and no longer had any one to give give orders to and have their ego,s stroked. However they are in the minority and most ex regs are good instructors who usually have the most important qualitiy that imo is a necessity and that is a good degree of life experience.
As Walt of the walt says, any organisation with a uniform and discipiline structure has it,s share of throbbers, they are there in the ACF but most of the instructors are in it for the right reasons.
The uniform collectors normally leave quickly when they realise that there is a large degree of hard work involved, unfortunately, the odd few remain, and it is these sorry inadequate individuals that give the organisation a bad name.
 
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