ACF to get "old" SA80s

#1
As I am sure you will all know the ACF is soon to get the zillion old SA80 Mark 1s out there.

Given that our Cadets start weapon Trg at 12 to add gas parts and BFAs to their training might be a bit steep.
 
#2
How about taking the gas parts out? That would make the weapon non-automatic and nice and safe for the little 'uns. Failing that, fit them with .22 conversions as they did with the SLR.

And how much training does a BFA require? Even if they do start at 12, you've got to give them some credit! It's not exactly rocket science is it?
 
#4
The Cadet GP is by far the most dangerous out of them all, no BFA! All the shite comes out the barrel, kids can't be expected to remeber to aim off all the time, a normal rifle, with the change lever set on R and a BFA would be perfect for the little 'uns
 
#5
Given we only get 5 blank rounds for an exercise at lease with the GP you would have a couple of stoppages so it took longer.

With a BFA and a semi automatic fire rifle all engagements would last 5 seconds.

A SLR will help with full bore shooting as the GP does kick some for the Cadets.

Either way they are coming whether we like them or not.

At lease those who join the Army will be trained on the same rifle.
 
#6
It is piss poor, when the cadets get 10 rounds a piece for a 2 day ex, the Army is trying to get people in, the best recriuting ground is the cadets.
As for the manual that would kill a donkey of "what you can't do", why dont they replace it with a considerably smaller manual entitled "things you can do"
 
#7
Doghead,

At last a voice from the wilderness, I agree it is not the ACF I joined, I wonder now given Risk Assessments and Red Tape why Cadets join at all.

Soon we will be in danger of becoming Scouts in a Different uniform. I always thought "Army" was the first part of our title, perhaps the powers that be should remember that and why most Cadets join, to wear a uniform and shoot a rifle.

Semper Fi
 
#8
Semper Fi, interesting.

I agree the use of a BFA is a bonus, the added risk of automatic fire... if they get it wrong, a BFA isn't checked etc is something that would worry me.

Children with rifles at all worries me. Especially when it comes to live rounds on the range.

From my contact with cadets I observed that 5 rounds would be too many for some and those that want more aren't always the ones that should have them.
 
#9
Dear Ant,

Sorry if some of my colleagues have frightened you. We are very strict on Weapon handling and would never allow Cadets to fire unless they were compitent and had passed their SAA test.

I can however understand your concern but we too try our best to be professional.

Regards

Birddog
 
#10
Whilst I appriate that 'most' units try to be profesional, what about the ones which are run by complete tossers?

I went to visit one one night from unit, and there was one twat there wondering roun d looking like he had'nt bothered to shave all week, he had a snipers carry bag on his leg, and a PISTOL in a drop leg holster!!"!!!

In my book, thats not exactly professional!!!! This is the kind of dick who will end up getting arrested, or killing a cadet, because of his 'I always wanted to join the SAS attitude'! :twisted:
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
#11
antphilip said:
Semper Fi, interesting.

I agree the use of a BFA is a bonus, the added risk of automatic fire... if they get it wrong, a BFA isn't checked etc is something that would worry me.

Children with rifles at all worries me. Especially when it comes to live rounds on the range.

From my contact with cadets I observed that 5 rounds would be too many for some and those that want more aren't always the ones that should have them.
With reference to blank firing, all that should be required is to ensure that several checks by instrs are written into the SOPs.
I imagine that the cadets must make the declaration after using ammo of any sort, so if they can be drilled in that then making 'Check your BFA' part of their battle prep shouldn't be a problem.

Children with firearms of any sort has never bothered me - as long as they've been PROPERLY trained in the safe use and handling of them.

Educating children - or anyone - in safety should always be paramount, any fault will always lie with those instructing them and the standard to which they teach.
 
#12
Plant-Pilot said:
How about taking the gas parts out? That would make the weapon non-automatic and nice and safe for the little 'uns. Failing that, fit them with .22 conversions as they did with the SLR.
That would make it a L98A1 (5.56mm Single Shot, Bolt Action,GS Rifle) they already have! Which is a fine target rifle in its own right.

The L98A1 was designed specifically to be a Section 1 firearm, although this no longer matters as a provision of the Armed Forces Act 1996 allows cadets to use prohibited weapons. Since the ACF already use the L86A1 Light Support Weapon (LSW) there is no legal reason to not issue L85A1's

This was discussed on the REME Forum a while back http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=136999&highlight=#136999

hungry said:
Have you back loaded your A1 spares yes oh well. You will be happy to know that i am shortly coming into proof that the powers that be are issuing A1 weapons to the ACF without the change lever. This isn t scheduled till 2005-2006 so might happen by 2010. Anybody been told about this ?
Are the L85A1's to give them the correct title still to be modified to remove the fully automatic feature? or issued as is?

The use of a BFA I feel is a step forward on H&S grounds.
 
#13
morrik said:
Whilst I appriate that 'most' units try to be profesional, what about the ones which are run by complete tossers?

I went to visit one one night from unit, and there was one t**t there wondering roun d looking like he had'nt bothered to shave all week, he had a snipers carry bag on his leg, and a PISTOL in a drop leg holster!!"!!!

In my book, thats not exactly professional!!!! This is the kind of dick who will end up getting arrested, or killing a cadet, because of his 'I always wanted to join the SAS attitude'! :twisted:
I am totally amazed by this it is people like them that give us such a bad name amongst the Army no wonder people think we are idiots. I know that you can be a 20 year old Sgt in the ACF and in the regs you have to train and wait years in my view if you wear the Queens Uniform do so with pride and respect those that have earned the right. I am afraid there are too many "Walter Mitties" in the ACF.

I have always tried to be a credit to the uniform which after all we all wear. I hope that one day you all get to visit a unit like mine. I have 60 Cadets who occupy a TA Centre and for us being professional is what it is all about.

In answer to the other questions.

Prior to any blank firing I have to read a section from the red book. The Cadets then have a blank firing demo where we blow up a packet of biscuits brown. Then a declaration is given and I check their mags and pouches. Then NSPs and finally we can begin. Also the same happens at the end.

During "battle" no Cadet can perform a bound unless the weapon has been made safe.

BFAs will help reduce the effects of firing blanks with no protection on the muzzle.

We gather the change level will be removed or welded in the "up" position.
 
#15
Cutaway said:
Birddog said:
As I am sure you will all know the ACF is soon to get the zillion old SA80 Mark 1s out there.

......

Is this just because no other country is dim enough to buy them ?
Just remember your weapon is made by the lowest bidder. If you think the SA80 or Rifle 5.56mm is bad try using the Cadet GP. Huge cocking handle, it rattles like a wind chime and is allegidy accurate to 300metres.

Our rifles pants, the RG mags are pants our Cadet Cleaning Kits are pants, the only decent thing is the sling.

It is possible to wiggle the rifle several mm even with both pins in by gripping the tmh and rocking the carrying handle, quality machining.

I am sure it says ACME on the side or is that Fisherprice.

Still better than nothing and we are grateful as this was the first rifle designed especially for Cadets.
 
#16
I have had the opportunity to use an L98 (Cadet gp) and must admit the large cockin handle did raise some interesting questions about following the safety drills as you have to cock it with your right hand, every time after firing.
 
#18
Of the 380,000 L85A1's produced by Royal Ordnance 200,000 were converted to A2 by Heckler Koch.
They were not 'New Build'

Some Training Establishments, TA Units and UK Base Units are still equipped with the A1 as well as RAF & RN units.
How many A1's would the ACF need? and are there enough to go round?

Currant Strengh of the Regular Armed Forces of 204,400 (171,060 OR's)
Plus Others (9310 OR's - see notes at bottom of tsp1)
http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/tsp1/gender.html

Plus

Volunteer & Reserve Forces plus University Units of 246,750 (195,600 OR's)
http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/tsp7/tsp7tab1.html

Add to this MOD Police (3,800) and the Military Provost Guard Service (1,800)
Not all OR's are equipped with the L85 some use the L86, HK MP4 or Pistol

Add to this:
Weapons needed for Cadet Forces: (not included in above OR figures)
ACF = 71,300
ATC = 32,720
Sea Cadets = 18,200
Total required = 122,2000

So on the face of it, there is NOT enough to go round!
Would the Cadet L95's be converted or sold? to whom?

Also bear in mind that training units will have stocks of L85's for training and unit's will have un-allocated weapons awaiting filling of posts etc.
So the actual number of weapons needed could be higher than listed above.

*Above statistics are UNCLASSIFIED
My calculations are only approximate...
 
#20
I think Mikes numbers are correct, but as far as cadets are concerned the number of cadets has nothing to do with the number of weapons. The unite I am with has 1 cadet GP rifle for every 4 cadets and we are luckier than some. I can think of another unit near us that has 1 rifle for every 7 cadets. There are not that many L98s about! Ours were made about 1987, but only issued to us as brand new less than 2 years ago. Our training of our cadets has safety as the paramount concern, but the major problem with the rifle is that the cocking system is poorly designed and difficult to operate unless the rifle is dripping oil and the cadet is more or less adult size/strength. Also the complete shift in position between shots does not make for accurate shooting on the range. It can be so awkward that at a recent shoot regulars who had a go with the thing were getting worse scores than my cadets - I am not suggesting that the cadets are good. Far from it, the cadet GP is just so awkward to use, especially when you are not used to it.

AB
 

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